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PostPosted: February 7th, 2006, 8:34 pm 
Elf
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Well, actually Fleur, the quote makes it plain as day. :) I'll go over it in more detail:

"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses."

This quote is from the tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the appendice of ROTK, and if you read the whole paragraph in that story, you will note that when Elrond says "so long as I abide here", his is refering to Middle-earth. And when He says "and when I depart" he is refering to Valinor.
Elrond was given the choice of mortality or immortality, because of his lineage, when he was very young, and even though he choose to be immortal, he is still half human; so his children have the choice to give up their immortality whenever they so choose. Elrond's children were born elves, but they can forsake immortal life if they wish to. So when Elrond leaves, Arwen and also her brothers who choose the same fate, will have forsaken their immortal calling by turning away from the sea road that leads to Valinor.
If any of his children had choosen to be mortal, he would have left either way, because I don't think he would have stayed to watch them grow old. In that way their immortality is tied to him. They turn away from it.

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PostPosted: February 9th, 2006, 4:35 am 


ohhh.. i get it now, lol thanx! but it is sad that none of elronds children went with him, i feel sorry for him , though, he had Celebrian to look forward to i guess..hmm...


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PostPosted: February 9th, 2006, 7:13 pm 
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:) Yes, it sad, but like he said; it's a parting bitter till the end of the world, well, I can't remember the exact quote, but it has that same meaning. :) Anything else plauging your mind?

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PostPosted: February 12th, 2006, 9:22 pm 
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Do I kill like, every thread? :blink:

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PostPosted: February 13th, 2006, 9:01 pm 
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Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: February 13th, 2006, 9:10 pm 
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PostPosted: February 14th, 2006, 2:30 am 
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I did not say that Elronds departure is the cause of Arwens' becoming mortal, but it is more a time when she turns away from that choice. Like you said, "Elrond takes the Youth of the Eldar, and that is true; but it is more that Arwen turns away from her Sea calling that all other elves followed, so in that way she makes her choice of becoming mortal in heart and mind.

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PostPosted: February 14th, 2006, 12:59 pm 
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Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: February 14th, 2006, 1:08 pm 
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Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: February 14th, 2006, 7:59 pm 
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I'm sorry. I guess I should have been more precise with my wording. What I should have said is, she chooses to turn away from it and so therein loses her immortality by accepting the fact that she has turned away from that road of life, seeing as how she has that choice. When I first started in this discussion, I was still fully analyzing the situations.

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to me it does sound like someone who is trying to tell us how she looses it not why!


Actually I was doing quite the opposite, instead of repeatedly going over her lineage, I was going more in depth and trying to find out a reasonable answer for myself as to "how" she loses that immortality. :P The initial question was how and not why.

Elia wrote:
I don't get the how an elf becomes mortal. Take Arwen for instance, like, she can't just say,"i choose a mortal life" and then all of a sudden become mortal, can she? Must she go through a process of praying or something like that?


"Why" she loses it is plainly researchable in the book, but how is a more complicated question. It depends whether one wants to take the quote that Elrond says literally, or more theoritically. In the end, only he really know the final answer. ;)

So if one takes it theoritically, it would be that she would stay and die of sorrow, so in that way she loses immortality but literally taken, it would be that she loses it when her father departs.

I was suggesting something different though. As in she "turns" away from immortal life when she rejects the sea calling. And maybe it is family tradition for her to leave with the rest of the high elves; like when Galadriel and Elrond left together. Celeborn went four years later. But again, one must remember that Celeborn is not of as high lineage as the Lady Galadriel.

But we also have to remember, once she decides to stay, no ship will carry her to Valinor. She gave up that choice when she did not go when it was her time.

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If you wanted to give us a precious piece of information on why she looses her immortality you should have started by the obvious: LOVE!!!


Once again, the original question was "how" a half-elf such as Arwen loses immortality, not why. Like I said before, why is a simply researchable question from the books. You all had already said a few times "why" her lineage permitted her to lose her immortality if she so wished. I just overviewed a few missed details and corrected on that a bit. I was more concentrating on finding a reason as to how. Though it seems there is more then one way to look at that.

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So at the begining you are saying that Arwen looses her immortality because of Elrond's departure and now you do agree that is is said nowhere that the two phenomenon are linked. Are we all going circle here, you included?


No, it's just that I was not going in depth enough of my opinion when I first started out in this discussion.

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"exhibition of knowledge stunt" has proven to show us that we know as much as you do and that your statement was only an analyse of yours not the words of Tolkien.


True, it was my own analysis of the situation, but in truth that is all we can do- even you. And what do you mean by "exhibition of knowledge stunt"? Are you implying that I'm "trying" to look smart?

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PostPosted: February 14th, 2006, 10:51 pm 
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Ohhhh! I read this in the Silmarillion! As Ea stated, Arwen can choose because she is half elven.


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2006, 12:51 am 
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Thanks Nauriel. :) But that's why, we're trying to figure out how she loses it.

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PostPosted: February 15th, 2006, 6:37 am 
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Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: February 15th, 2006, 6:16 pm 
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I think you guys are going around in circles a bit. Instead of figuring out "how" she loses her immortality, you all are repeating why:



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You have indeed said that we were going circles and that instead of finding out "HOW" she looses it, we should ask "WHY". And now you are saying that you never engaged the debat on "WHY"???? I think that you've gone that far that you are getting confused yourself.


I think you've mis-interpreted my words. What I cleary stated is that the question is "how" she goes about no longer being immortal. But everyone in this thread was repeating her lineage and that is the reason "why" she is able to choose to be immortal or mortal.

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So here, we have all gone full circles and all agree that she chooses, not looses (the difference might be slight but woth to be mentioned) to become immortal because she has the privilege to do so as an Half-Elven being.


I agree that she chooses to become immortal

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And yes we would have to mention the lineage and the rest if the next question was WHY Half-Elven beings have that choice.


I think you are confused a bit my friend. :) The original question asks nothing about "why" she is able to become immortal, but rather "how" she goes about losing and that's what I was talking about. But everyone started talking about her lineage. And the only reason I discussed her lineage at all was because there were some errors made in the facts that others were stating.

Basically, I think you meaning of the words "how" and "why" are different from mine.
How is the way in which she loses immortality and why is the reason why she Can choose to forsake immortal life, which is explained by her lineage.

Quote:
Technically and basically, the answer to HOW is she is Half-Elven, full stop.
In depth, the answer would take us to WHY and then lead us to the lineage and history.


Again, WHY she can forsake immortal life is because she is half-elven, that is not how she loses it. I think you have the meaning of why and how mixed up.

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Now if you asked why she chooses to loose her immortality, then the question would drift away from all the boring historical background and technical issues in order to take us to the core of everything: LOVE, Aragorn and the rest. Now this subject would deserve evelasting analysis and in depth exange of ideas.


Why she CHOOSES to forsake immortal life is for love and is obviously evident, it is also not what this discussion is about.

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instead of finding out "HOW" she looses it, we should ask "WHY".


No. I never said you should ask why, I did quite the opposite. I said that instead of repeating WHY, which would be her lineage, we should more focus on answering the question of how she no longer posesses the life of the Eldar.

Quote:
Arwen has the privilege to choose either to be a mortal being or an elf simply because of haer gentic heritage.


Again, that is WHY she can choose whether to be immortal or mortal. The question that this thread is asking, is HOW she goes about no longer being immortal. Love has little to do with how. Love is the reason she chooses to forsake immortal life. HOW she forsakes that life is the question of this thread.

Once again, the question that started this is HOW Arwen goes about no longer being immortal.

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Last edited by Arien Elensar on February 16th, 2006, 3:11 am, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: February 15th, 2006, 6:57 pm 
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PostPosted: February 15th, 2006, 10:38 pm 
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I've edited by previous post. :)

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