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PostPosted: February 15th, 2006, 11:51 pm 
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But her lineage is a link to how she looses it. Bith how and why are linked together. If i remember correctly, in the Silmarrilion, it states that the Varda gae the half elven of Earendil's desendents the choice. It is them who take away the immortality.


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PostPosted: February 15th, 2006, 11:59 pm 
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Why and how are tied to the topic. But why is researchable in the books. We are attempting to answer a more vague question: "How" she initially is no longer immortal. Sorry, got a tad bit confused, so you are saying that the Valar take away the immortality of the half-elves? :)

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 12:01 am 
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Elia wrote:
I don't get the how an elf becomes mortal. Take Arwen for instance, like, she can't just say,"i choose a mortal life" and then all of a sudden become mortal, can she? Must she go through a process of praying or something like that?


Again, HOW. We are trying to answer the question above of how she is no longer an immortal elf. Why is a different question and is answered by her lineage.

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 5:35 am 
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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 5:59 am 
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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 5:56 pm 
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Okay. I think this all shows that you and I have different perspective of what the words "why" and "how" mean. I'm not saying the opposite of my words, it's just that, our meanings collide. That's why we're on such different pages. For me:

The WHY she can give up her immortal life is because of her lineage privleges her to it

WHY she gives it up in the first place is because of love

HOW is the way in which she goes about no longer having that immortal life

HOW can not be that she "makes the choice to forsake immortal life". As it was stated in the first post:
Elia wrote:
I don't get the how an elf becomes mortal. Take Arwen for instance, like, she can't just say,"i choose a mortal life" and then all of a sudden become mortal, can she?


We know she makes the choice of becoming immortal. But how and when is she no longer considered immortal? That's what we are trying to answer. Though her making that choice in her heart and turning from the road to Valinor in her mind which is her calling forever, seems to work.

Quote:
But the deep and roar answer to WHY in itself is LOVE!


That's why she chooses to lose immortality and is what the whole story is telling us. But we want to know is how does she no longer posess that immortality and when is it gone from her?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
instead of finding out "HOW" she looses it, we should ask "WHY".


I picked that quote up directly from your first post yesterday, have you edited it!?!


You said that quote that I quoted in my previous post. I was quoting you! I did not say "instead of finding out "HOW" she looses it, we should ask "WHY"
We already know why she can forsake immortality! Because of her lineage. We are trying to figure out how she goes about no longer having that immortality.

Quote:
We all have got the explaination of the HOW right (lineage) which is not the answer to the big WHY by the way.


This Proves that our meaning of "why" and "how" in general are different. To me, and most others I believe, how is the way in which something is conducted. "Like how did you do that?" Why is the reason. Like: "Why can you do that?" The "why" is the lineage, not the how she no longer is considered immortal.

Our views on how and why are opposite.

Quote:
You are definitely confusing yourself in your own process!


No. It's that our meanings of the words how and why in general don't match up. I think you might be a bit confused about those to words general meanings.

Quote:
Just a simple technical answer, no analysis of words, no personal interpretation, just a plain, simple and technical answer!


Again, the WHY is her lineage. That is the simple and technical answer we all get. But I think you are confusing that as the answer of "HOW". How is the way in which something is done. And that is what we are trying to find. You have your meanings mixed up. Bottom line.

Quote:
How does Arwen looses her immortality?
Arwen looses her immortality by having the privilege of choosing between immortality and mortality. So the answer to HOW is: She chooses, you know the action of CHOOSING?


That is not the answer to HOW she loses immortality. That is answering WHY she can turn from it in the first place. Again, your meanings of how and why are opposite. When you realize that, I think this will make a lot more sense.

Quote:
So in a nut shell, the answer of HOW is that she MAKES A CHOICE.


True she makes a choice and that may be the theoritical answer to how she loses immortality. But literally looking at it, does she have to do something to no longer be immortal? Or does she just chose and she's mortal? That's the thing we're trying to figure out. HOW. Your meaning of how seems to be the "why", which is her lineage.

Quote:
Technically and basically, the answer to HOW is she is Half-Elven, full stop.


No. That is the WHY! She can forsake immortal life BECAUSE she is half-elven. HOW is totally different and that's what this thread was originally asking. How can she say she is no longer immortal? When does she no longer possess immortality?

Quote:
So here, make yourself useful and instead of giving us your precious answer in the form of a personal interpretation of Elrond's quote, Give us a plain, technical, and tangible answer written black on white by Tolkien in any of his books.


There is no plain answer to how! (YOU have how and why mixed up!) There is however a plain and text answer to why, which is her lineage. HOw is not writen in black and white and that's why this thread is here to try to figure that out. And I gave my two cents on my opinion of how she is no longer considered immortal and when. Now you go make yourself useful and try to UNDERSTAND that you have the root meaning of the words "how" and "why" mixed up.

Quote:
Now if you hade the answer on the ceremony or process around the choice making process, then I will buy you a candy


I think you finally understood what I was saying. Yeah, we are TRYING to find out what she does to no longer be immortal. And everyone has a different view on this because there is NO black and white answer.


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I look forward to your answer "My friend"


What's with the quotation marks around my friend?

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Last edited by Arien Elensar on February 16th, 2006, 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 6:31 pm 
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< Everything will make much more sense to you once you get the initially meanings of the words WHY and HOW understood.


Fleur wrote:
Ok, now I think that I am slightly getting p#*!## off by this all "Fish bowl" motion of ours here!

Love has everything to do with WHY she chooses to loose her immortality.
Here is the simplified answer if you prefer to have it plain:

Why does Arwen chooses to loose her immortality?
Because she loves Aragron so much that she wants to choose a mortal life and be by his side and die by his side!

How does Arwen looses her immortality?
Arwen looses her immortality by having the privilege of choosing between immortality and mortality. So the answer to HOW is: She chooses, you know the action of CHOOSING?

Now the lineage is the complimentary piece of information to the answer of HOW! Not the answer the to big WHY!

But the deep and roar answer to WHY in itself is LOVE!

YOUR QUOTE:
Quote:
How is the way in which she loses immortality and why is the reason why she Can choose to forsake immortal life, which is explained by her lineage.


That is what I said almost word by word, are you out of your senses? Look:

MY QUOTE:
Quote:
Technically and basically, the answer to HOW is she is Half-Elven, full stop.
In depth, the answer would take us to WHY and then lead us to the lineage and history.


Quote:
Why she CHOOSES to forsake immortal life is for love and is obviously evident, it is also not what this discussion is about.


I never said that it was the center of that it was waht the discussion was about, I was elaborating "My Friend". Is it not one of the things you started doing on this thread?

Quote:
No. I never said you should ask why, I did quite the opposite. I said that instead of repeating WHY, which would be her lineage, we should more focus on answering the question of how she no longer posesses the life of the Eldar.


These are your WORDS for Christ sake!...:
Quote:
instead of finding out "HOW" she looses it, we should ask "WHY".

I picked that quote up directly from your first post yesterday, have you edited it!?!

You are definitely confusing yourself in your own process!

YOUR QUOTE:
Quote:
HOW she forsakes that life is the question of this thread


So here, make yourself useful and instead of giving us your precious answer in the form of a personal interpretation of Elrond's quote, Give us a plain, technical, and tangible answer written black on white by Tolkien in any of his books.

Just a simple technical answer, no analysis of words, no personal interpretation, just a plain, simple and technical answer!

We all have got the explaination of the HOW right (lineage) which is not the answer to the big WHY by the way.

So in a nut shell, the answer of HOW is that she MAKES A CHOICE.

Now if you hade the answer on the ceremony or process around the choice making process, then I will buy you a candy ;)

I look forward to your answer "My friend"

F;)

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 6:44 pm 
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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 6:48 pm 
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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 7:39 pm 
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I'm not even going to start on how rude you are acting because that would be a perfect wast of my time. You are too stubborn to admit that you have made a slight misconception in meaning and that is your loss, not mine. ;) I actually think we both have the same point and agree on the same thing, it's just that we are switching the answers of why and how.

Quote:
You do not have an answer and instead you've come with the same old "shall I take what Fleur has said and say it in my own words" kind of things.


I may not, but I do have suggestions just as you do. I didn't take what you said and say in your words. But like I said before, we seemed to be having the same point, just mixing up the words why and how but you don't seem anywhere near of accepting that fact.

And yes I'm quoting but I like to and can do it just as much as I please. :P

Quote:
I think that you will be able to make such a statement once you've achieved my level of education my little student friend.


My level of thinking is quite high thank you and I at least know the proper meanings of how and why in this case. You're hidden insults are clever, but next time, just say it to my face.

Quote:
Your intervention is sterile, insipid and pointless.


Now that's down right low. I started out giving my suggestions and correcting some comments that were made about her lineage, which again, is why she can give up her immortality. And you then rebuttaled and we branched off from there. I slowly began to realize that our how and why were opposite and if you don't want to accept that fact, so be it.

Quote:
Oh, yes, I almost forgot..... Two words came to my mind when thinking about you: Gold Fish and Parrot... cute hey!

You are so blatantly petty, Ah Ah Ah, you are quite entertaining in a useful kind of way, my little useful friend!!!


Yeah... cute. :closedeyes: And you would be the squaking parrot?


I still stand by what I said:

Why she forsakes immortal life is: love
Why she can do that is: lineage
How she does that is: many possiblities. We can only suggest.

Quote:
you could have spared us a lot of time would you have accepted Meltithenniel's answer as final and complete.


Again, she answered the question of "why" Arwen can forsake immortal life. Not how she does it. I now realize that there is no real answer for that, we all can only suggest. Now if we all had realized there is no final answer to it, we each could have saved on another this hassel.

But honestly, get your why's and how's straight.

Quote:
your irritating habit to repeat my words


This proves that we both had the same point, but, we were just stating it differently according to the "why" and the "how". Get that and it's all good my "little student friend".

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 8:33 pm 
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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 9:01 pm 
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You are completely avoiding what I am posting and suggesting to you. You are just repeating the same thing that I am annoying and the like. No offense, but you youself are avoidng the real material of my posts and keep repeating that I am unbearable, but you are missing the point. YOU are too stubborn to realize that you may have made the mistake of why and how. Just look at it and really think about what I posted in my previous post. You may have graduated twice, but that doesn't make you prone to simple mistakes. Now, look at it from my point of view and tell me how am I contradicting myself Fleur?


And you know, what; you're right, I shouldn't have used them against you but you need to have respect for those around you and shouldn't have said that at all in the first place.

Nice signature btw.

Quote:
You have attempted to bring enough confusion and have edited too many of your posts already. You have kept contradicting yourself!


I as a member am entitled to edit my posts as many times as I wish. I may have brought some confusion to this thread but so have you and that is part of the "discussion" process. Give me some examples of where I have contradicted myself. And please, at least think about the following:

Why she forsakes immortal life is: love
Why she can do that is: lineage
How she does that is: many possiblities. We can only suggest.

Do you agree or disagree? :)

Best regards,
Arien

PS: Don't try your fancy vocabulary on me

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 9:36 pm 
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Quote:
Meaning, when Elrond leaves for Valinor, Arwen will no longer be immortal


I think when I said this, the whole mess started. True, I said this but then I later went on to more depth that mayb Arwen would have left with the rest of the high elves if she had not decided to remain with Aragorn. So in a way it is not tied to Elrond himself but her turning away from the Sea calling. I think the one thing should have maybe not split my ideas into so many posts. I was being vague in the beginning and and then branched out later, what I should have done was explain that all at once. So in that way I can say were you might say I contradicted myself. But indeed, I did not. It's just that my ideas were to split.

I said:
Quote:
I was suggesting something different though. As in she "turns" away from immortal life when she rejects the sea calling. And maybe it is family tradition for her to leave with the rest of the high elves; like when Galadriel and Elrond left together. Celeborn went four years later. But again, one must remember that Celeborn is not of as high lineage as the Lady Galadriel.

But we also have to remember, once she decides to stay, no ship will carry her to Valinor. She gave up that choice when she did not go when it was her time.


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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 10:38 pm 
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dictionary.com wrote:
HOW
1. In what manner or way; by what means
2. In what state or condition

Here's the problem...
dictionary.com wrote:
4. For what reason or purpose; why

Usually "how" is used as one or two.
dictionary.com wrote:
WHY
1. For what purpose, reason, or cause; with what intention, justification, or motive
2. The reason, cause, or purpose for which

The second basically repeats the first.
Now for my two cents:
I think, Fleur, that you also have contradicted yourself a couple times. I will quote when my head stops :explode: -ing. I see your point, but I must agree with Arien. By the definitions above, lineage and love both fall under "why." There could be a million answers to "how." It seems the two of you are fighting over your opinions. OPINIONS. The only one who knows "how" if J.R.R. Tolkien, and maybe his son, Christopher. If he doesn't know, then neither does anyone else. I'm sorry if I have mistaken any information, but as previously stated,
DamsonRhee wrote:
when my head stops :explode: -ing
I hope to be right back with those quotes...... .............And you have been quite rude, Fleur........

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 11:37 pm 
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From trying to reread everything, it's looking like tomorrow I will get back to you. Don't flame me either. If you were a bystander reading this thing, you would feel the same way.
bystander wrote:
you are stating the same thing over and over and over and over and over etc. :explode:

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PostPosted: February 16th, 2006, 11:48 pm 
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bystander wrote:
allrighty. I'm DamsonRhee's sister, and I've just read through your posts. YOU GUYS ARE SIMPLY REHASHING THE SAME INFO. OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!! There's just a simple misunderstanding of "how" and "why." You just percieve it in a different way, and Fleur, you need to FREAKIN' SEE THAT!!
Fleur- You are trying to sound smart, and it's not working. You just sound like someone who pulled random words out of the dictionary and said,"Ooh! This word's preeeetty!!" You are unbelievably rude and too stubborn to see someone else's pont of view. Oh, and a question. If you "graduated twice with honors from University," WHY ARE YOU HERE??? IF YOU'RE SO SMART, GO DO SOMETHING. GET A LIFE!!!! YOU'RE ARGUING WITH A "MINOR"!!!!!!! GET A FREAKIN' LIFE!!!
Arien-This is soo confusing, but I see your point. I understand what you are saying soo much better than miss parrot over there. Kudos to you.

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