Rules      FAQ       Register        Login
It is currently July 3rd, 2020, 10:10 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 5:14 am 
Ringwraith
Ringwraith

Joined: 15 January 2006
Posts: 1543
Location: somewhere

Offline
Maybe Tolkien intenionally didn't give us the detail of how a peredhil gives up their immortality because he didn't want us to know!


I think we all need to think a bit more clearly when we post a reply, without being frustrated at anyone. Keep the peace peoples! :punk:

A friendly debate can start off friendly, but when one person won't consider and respect the others paradigm (perspective), things can get messy.

So if there's any more posts after this, try not to repeat the same thing and debate over which perspective is right, because it makes everyone who looks at this thread uncomfy :)

Mel :bye2:

_________________
<center>
Thinking of new sig set...


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 6:43 am 
Hobbit
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 35
Location: UK

Offline
OneRingVision 2007 UK

"Put You Passion Into Motion"

http://www.theoneringvision.com

_________________
Image

<a href="http://theoneringvision.com/forum/index.php">
<img src="http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/fleurdelysinuk/Forum_Banner.gif" /></a>

www.theoneringvision.com


Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW            
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 7:05 am 
Hobbit
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 35
Location: UK

Offline
OneRingVision 2007 UK

"Put You Passion Into Motion"

http://www.theoneringvision.com

_________________
Image

<a href="http://theoneringvision.com/forum/index.php">
<img src="http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/fleurdelysinuk/Forum_Banner.gif" /></a>

www.theoneringvision.com


Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW            
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 8:19 am 
Hobbit
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 35
Location: UK

Offline
OneRingVision 2007 UK

"Put You Passion Into Motion"

http://www.theoneringvision.com

_________________
Image

<a href="http://theoneringvision.com/forum/index.php">
<img src="http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/fleurdelysinuk/Forum_Banner.gif" /></a>

www.theoneringvision.com


Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW            
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 8:31 am 
Hobbit
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 35
Location: UK

Offline
OneRingVision 2007 UK

"Put You Passion Into Motion"

http://www.theoneringvision.com

_________________
Image

<a href="http://theoneringvision.com/forum/index.php">
<img src="http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/fleurdelysinuk/Forum_Banner.gif" /></a>

www.theoneringvision.com


Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW            
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 1:34 pm 
Maia
Maia
User avatar

Joined: 28 June 2005
Posts: 4132

Offline
sister: Oh! My oh my! You've stabbed me in the heart!! Oh no! Yeah right. Whatever. If you don't like being dragged on by others, then why do you do it yourself, hmm? Take your two degress and "art designing" and actually do something. This is not a big deal. Miss Parrot

_________________
Bob Seger 11/19;Celtic Thunder 9/29
Gettysburg 150th!!!
Image
Image


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 1:51 pm 
Maia
Maia
User avatar

Joined: 28 June 2005
Posts: 4132

Offline
Fleur wrote:
So here you are telling us all that we are all going circles trying to explain how she looses her immortality which in fact was the initial question of this thread as far as things are concerned here.

Fleur wrote:
explaining us that immortality is taken by the valar... to me it does sound like someone who is trying to tell us how she looses it not why
You just said "How" was the question didn't you? Then what's wrong with Arien saying "how"? :blink:
Fleur wrote:
You have indeed said that we were going circles and that instead of finding out "HOW" she looses it, we should ask "WHY".

I thought she said "repeating" why not "should ask"?
Fleur wrote:
In depth, the answer would take us to WHY and then lead us to the lineage and history.

Fleur wrote:
Now the lineage is the complimentary piece of information to the answer of HOW! Not the answer the to big WHY!

Didn't you say above that lineage is attached to "why" and then say below it was attacher to "how"?
I deeply apologize if I am confused and have confused any of the information, my brain's starting to form again. And I apologize for my sister. I can't control her, believe me, I've tried and I'm the last person she listens to.... :confuzzled:

_________________
Bob Seger 11/19;Celtic Thunder 9/29
Gettysburg 150th!!!
Image
Image


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 1:52 pm 
Maia
Maia
User avatar

Joined: 28 June 2005
Posts: 4132

Offline
Meltithenniel wrote:
Maybe Tolkien intenionally didn't give us the detail of how a peredhil gives up their immortality because he didn't want us to know!
I think we all need to think a bit more clearly when we post a reply, without being frustrated at anyone. Keep the peace peoples! :punk:
A friendly debate can start off friendly, but when one person won't consider and respect the others paradigm (perspective), things can get messy.
So if there's any more posts after this, try not to repeat the same thing and debate over which perspective is right, because it makes everyone who looks at this thread uncomfy :)
Mel :bye2:

AMEN! I am done in this thread. My apologies, Fleur.

_________________
Bob Seger 11/19;Celtic Thunder 9/29
Gettysburg 150th!!!
Image
Image


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 5:18 pm 
Hobbit
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 35
Location: UK

Offline
OneRingVision 2007 UK

"Put You Passion Into Motion"

http://www.theoneringvision.com

_________________
Image

<a href="http://theoneringvision.com/forum/index.php">
<img src="http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/fleurdelysinuk/Forum_Banner.gif" /></a>

www.theoneringvision.com


Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW            
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 8:09 pm 
Elf
Elf
User avatar

Joined: 04 June 2005
Posts: 1388
Location: California

Offline
Meltithenniel wrote:
Maybe Tolkien intenionally didn't give us the detail of how a peredhil gives up their immortality because he didn't want us to know!


I think we all need to think a bit more clearly when we post a reply, without being frustrated at anyone. Keep the peace peoples! :punk:

A friendly debate can start off friendly, but when one person won't consider and respect the others paradigm (perspective), things can get messy.

So if there's any more posts after this, try not to repeat the same thing and debate over which perspective is right, because it makes everyone who looks at this thread uncomfy :)

Mel :bye2:


I think this at least is one thing we all can agree with. :)

Quote:
But I do not like being taken for a ride by other confused souls.


Did you ever consider the fact that you may be a bit of a confused soul?

Quote:
Dear oh Dear DamsonRhee's sister! Have I got a life! Have you got one? Thanks to my two degrees, I am able to work from home, earn a good life and pick my assignments at my own leisure sweetheart. I am a working Artist Designer


Good for you, but that doesn't really have much to do with this duscussion now does it?

Quote:
For your information, I do not pull out words randomly because... hummmm... they all sound so nice or "preeeetty" to resume your words!


Okay, I'll agree with you on this one. The dictionary thing was a bit "out there". Even I don't do that.

Quote:
I do not like being dragged on like this.


Look at more then just your own point of view and accept things once and a while and you wouldn't be.

Quote:
Still, she should put that as a learning experience


Maybe you should as well. You're never to old to learn and hopefully you can pick up the proper uses of how and why.

Quote:
How Arwen does loose her immortality?
Arwen looses her immortality by having the privilege of choosing between immortality and mortality. So the answer to HOW is: She chooses, you know the action of CHOOSING?


Having the priveleges is not how she conducts the process of losing immortality. That is why can do it in the first place, not how she actually does it. "The action of CHOOSING?" That could work, if you wanted to take it VERY literally. We know she chooses but like the first post stated, she just can't say: "I choose I mortal life" We are, or were, trying to go beyond that. And that's were my whole "she turns from the Sea calling" thing comes in. And how it might be tradition for the high elves to go together so that's why she would have gone with her father.

Let me say this one more time. Maybe it will have even the slightest impact on you:

Why she WANTS to forsake immortal life is: love
Why she CAN do that is: lineage
HOW she does that is: many possiblities. We can only suggest.

Quote:
but in reality you are allowing this to happen by editing your previous posts when you see that I have made a point!


Now this by far is the worst assumption you have made. I do not, I repeat, DO NOT! Edit my posts after you have posted in response to them. I edited them over and over again before you come around and post BECAUSE I go back and forth for quotes and to fix spelling mistakes. Compare the times if you don't believe me! :blink:

Quote:
and I do not edit my posts over and over in order to back up my words unlike others.


Like I said before, I do NOT do this. Check the times and dates. :annoyed:

Quote:
Here you are saying that you now believe that love is the answer to "WHY".


It is the answer to why she WANTS to forsake her immortal life but not the answer to why she CAN. The answer to why she CAN is her lineage.

Quote:
Otherwise I will start gushing out words randomly for good, and this time they will not sound,"Ooh! so preeeetty!!"


Well that would be bad on your part now wouldn't it?

Quote:
tri-lingual


I myself am tri-lingual. I know english, Punjabi, most Hindi and am currently learning Spanish.

Quote:
It is understandable, we are all prone to mistakes even your sister.


You as well. Can't you see that you are mixing up the meanings of why and how? That's all I am trying to show you.

_________________
Image
Avatar by me :)


Last edited by Arien Elensar on February 17th, 2006, 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW     YIM        
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 17th, 2006, 9:20 pm 
Maia
Maia
User avatar

Joined: 28 June 2005
Posts: 4132

Offline
Fleur wrote:
Not to worry,

It is understandable, we are all prone to mistakes even your sister. By the way give her a big hug from Miss Parrot. Her reaction is definitely more endearing than anything else. I would say armless really. We are all subject to hormonal fluctuations as females; perhaps she is going through a very bad one. That would explain why she puts her nose where she should not like a crazy little miss puppy. If she is herself a teenager then I forgive her. We all learn…

Keep well :)
Peace! :bye2:

*shrugs* what can I say? She has some anger problems, but is probably more sane than I am......
:bye:

_________________
Bob Seger 11/19;Celtic Thunder 9/29
Gettysburg 150th!!!
Image
Image


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 18th, 2006, 4:55 am 
Hobbit
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 35
Location: UK

Offline
OneRingVision 2007 UK

"Put You Passion Into Motion"

http://www.theoneringvision.com

_________________
Image

<a href="http://theoneringvision.com/forum/index.php">
<img src="http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/fleurdelysinuk/Forum_Banner.gif" /></a>

www.theoneringvision.com


Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW            
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 18th, 2006, 5:01 am 
Hobbit
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 35
Location: UK

Offline
OneRingVision 2007 UK

"Put You Passion Into Motion"

http://www.theoneringvision.com

_________________
Image

<a href="http://theoneringvision.com/forum/index.php">
<img src="http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/fleurdelysinuk/Forum_Banner.gif" /></a>

www.theoneringvision.com


Last edited by OneRingVision on March 19th, 2006, 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW            
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 18th, 2006, 5:07 pm 
Elf
Elf
User avatar

Joined: 04 June 2005
Posts: 1388
Location: California

Offline
Quote:
I have said many times in this thread that Arwen forsakes a mortal life for Love, She does it in the manner of choosing, she can choose to do so because of her lineage.
Once for all, please stop asking me to agree on something that I have said many, many times before!!! I remeber you saying that LOVE had nothing to do with the WHY she does to choose a mortal life so let us call it a day shall we.


I think we have come to an agreement here and also figured out a clash we were having. You I believe were saying that she does so by the action of choosing but I had my mind set on going much further and trying to dig up some answer as to how exactly she conducts that choosing.
I did not say that love has nothing to do with the WHY SHE DOES CHOOSE, rather it had nothing to do with the HOW. Though, she would never have thought to forsake immortal life in the first place had she not met Aragorn. Though... maybe she would have, seeing as how her brothers did as well. :)

Quote:
The elaborated answer to HOW (if the action of choosing is not enough and therefore the point of this thread), is not researchable, not explainable as Tolkien himself never approached the matter in any of his writings (or, they never have been published, still I would welcome anyone who has read it as being written straightfowardlt black on white).


I think we have finally come to agree on something eye to eye. True, Tolkien did not write anything about the way in which Arwen is no longer considered immortal. I don't think there is a black and white answer, and you too seem to agree.
My suggestion was that maybe all the high elves travel together and that is why I picked that quote by Elrond. And her turning away from the sea calling signifies her breaking free from that road by choosing to turn away from it.

Quote:
You are so convinced you guys that I mix my "HOWs" and "WHYs", whereas I quite know the meaning of each of them, thank you very much! Now, Please stop saying that I mix them up.


Well, to me and others, it does so appear that you have mixed up you whys and hows. Are points are pretty much the same I realize, but the way in which you state is not.

Quote:
If you wanted to give us a precious piece of information on why she looses her immortality you should have started by the obvious: LOVE!!!


Yes, this is why she forsakes immortal life in the first place; but not how. And this, to most lotr fans should be common knowledge that's why I thought it no point in discussing it because it does not have much to do with how she initally is no longer immortal.

Quote:
Slight difference here though: When I answer HOW (a primary and simple answer), I say that she CHOOSES simply because I know that the answer is not researchable as it has never been given by the man, Tolkien himself. This is precisely why I went onto the next level which was establishing that her lineage allows her to do so. As I knew that we could not provide a palpable answer to Elia on the technicalities of the HOW, I went onto the lineage subject because that was at least one piece of information that Tolkien had given us and therefore that we could give to Elia as a subsidiary answer in the meantime.


Now I see what you are getting at. But I think we crossed roads when I was trying to find the root of how, and not her lineage because that was not the answer to how. But seeing as how there is no exact answer to how she forskaes it (I gave my suggestions), I can see why you'd bring up the lineage so you could at least provide some base for Elia to work off of. Though, I wanted to go deeper. That's were we collided.

Quote:
I do say that the primary fact of as well as answer to the HOW is that she chooses. I do consider that is where we should start from when trying to answer HOW. Then I would agree with you that we could say that the full answer to HOW (i.e. she chooses her immortal life by praying the Valars within a ceremonial context) can only be suggested. In that case I shall leave you to it as you seem to be willing to scrutinise and analyse the words of Tolkien for that matter (this not criticism, just an observation).


I think this about sums it up.

Quote:
If you are less then 16 then I will say "Hats down"! You are smart and resourceful for your age! Not many teenagers come with the will to read, analyse and think nowadays (oh... Did I sound like an old owl?).


I'm sixteen actually. I turned 16 on Jan. 24th. And, lol!, no you didn't. :)

Quote:
I also like your banners, carry on the good work (Which program are you using by the way? I do a lot of Photoshop montage and photo editing as a designer). At the end of the day, if you are in the US, you are still considered a minor until you reach 21, is that right? Make the most of it then... In Europe, you are considered responsible for your actions and words when you reach 16. That is why sometimes cultural clashes happen between the old continent and the mighty U.S of America. It is also why I did not consider at first that you could be too young to handle my harsh way to put things across. Still, I believe that we got slightly on each other's nerves at some point. I hope that we are all settled now. (I still believe that your friend's sister is a one off!).


I use Photoshop 7, though I had a trial of CS2 a while back. You?
No, I think it is 18 that one is no longer considered a minor.
True, we did get on each others nerves a tad too much. ;) lol

Quote:
My view is that Fantasy is not an exact science and should be left with touches of unexplained phenomenon just like HOW Arwen.......(we all know the rest).


I agree. But I have a nasty habit of wanting to know as much as I can about what I show an interest in.

_________________
Image
Avatar by me :)


Last edited by Arien Elensar on February 18th, 2006, 9:38 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Top
 Profile       WWW     YIM        
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 18th, 2006, 7:58 pm 
Maia
Maia
User avatar

Joined: 28 June 2005
Posts: 4132

Offline
aye yi yi

_________________
Bob Seger 11/19;Celtic Thunder 9/29
Gettysburg 150th!!!
Image
Image


Top
 Profile                  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: February 18th, 2006, 9:40 pm 
Elf
Elf
User avatar

Joined: 04 June 2005
Posts: 1388
Location: California

Offline
I have edited my previous post. :)

_________________
Image
Avatar by me :)


Top
 Profile       WWW     YIM        
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron




Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Boyz theme by Zarron Media 2003