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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 17th, 2015, 5:52 pm 
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Ah, well maybe if you come back to your poems another day you will be motivated. I love poetry so do post them if you finish them! :)


Hm.. Those are very interesting. What was the ethnicity of the person who organized them. It seems that they have different gramar than what I am used to perhaps. I think that kind of adds to it, however.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 17th, 2015, 11:30 pm 
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Meneldilme wrote:
Also, you should link the Parma Tyelpelassiva course- it's more updated than the Ardalambion course and not quite so academic either. Your other links to Parma Tyelpelassiva need to be updated too as the site has moved.

I also have my tumblr for Quenya related things, http://meneldilme.tumblr.com/.


Lyen hantanyë! Uan sintë i Sorondo vistanë natsenómeyo 'mentiessë'. Samin i vistë ettullë mi 'allúmëa' astali. Qui carin attëa tumblr ya sátina Arcastarinwa natin, hiluvanyë tumblr-elya.

"Thank you! I didn't know that Thorsten changed his website's URL*. I think that the change happened in recent* months. If I make a second Tumblr set aside for Tolkienian things, I will follow yours."

* URL = created from "direction-name, sending-name"
* recent = ar- "near, beside" and lúmë "time", like in yalúmë and later silumë, talumë, as well as adjectival -a like in ilyárëa and ilaurëa. As sometimes occurs, I didn't pluralize the adjective to match the noun in order to avoid confusion with the noun lúmië "annal". I probably should have simply replaced mi allúmëa astali with allúmessë or allúmissen, though. Boy do I feel rusty; I haven't tried to translate sentences in ages. There are probably Anglicisms creeping in that I'd get called out for on G+.

Curufine wrote:
I wish I could say that "it means light in elvish" or "It's the first letter of my name" or something. I could lie - it's not like anyone else would find out - but I know that it just means "rd".
Just "rd".

There's a fairly simple solution to that problem. :) The name of the tengwa signifying RD in Quenya (and RH in other uses) is arda, meaning "region". However, Tolkien also uses Arda to refer to "Earth", our planet. So the design on your set has a symbol associated with "Earth" (our World, not "dirt/soil") in high-elven.

Meneldilme wrote:
I plan for my site to have a complete verb database with full conjugation and examples.

That would be great! There are a lot of conjugation charts out there which are somewhat outdated; having an up-to-date version would be very helpful. I sometimes get tired of having to dig around various sources just to confirm what we know about the paradigms. If you're not aware of it already, Måns Björkman has an article in Arda Philology 3 (starting on p.56) you may be interested in if you don't have the later PEs; while Thorsten's articles cover through PE17, Björkman's article also mentions forms in PE18 and PE19. There wasn't much relevant to verb conjugation in 21 (though a few forms), but the upcoming PE22 should have a large amount of charts and forms which may add to or supplant some of our current conjugation knowledge. Any day now ... (they started mailing out copies on Monday).

Curufine wrote:
So I'm not really finding my... motivation to finish any experimental poetry

Aw :( Was it something in English or another language that you were translating into Quenya while keeping a rhyme, or were you creating a rhyming poem from scratch?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 2:54 pm 
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I've done a small 4-line rhyming poem, and I'm going to go over it and look for errors tomorrow. It's amazing how much trouble just 4 lines can give you when you're new to a language :P Twice I thought I had a perfect rhyme only to find that I hadn't accounted for the adjective agreeing in number and such.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 21st, 2015, 3:44 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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How exactily so you go about ryhming in quenya? It does not have to do with pronunciation as English does correct? Does it have more to do with the prefix of the word regardless of pronunciation?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 24th, 2015, 3:22 pm 
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I feel a bit out of my depth answering that ^^
As far as I can tell, you should be able to do things sort of like in English? You have a predictable stress pattern, so as long as the stress + the sounds of words match up, you could say that it rhymes? And you can of course do alitteration like you would in English...
I'd argue that you could say that pairs like sina/laurina would rhyme as the stress in both cases fall on the second-to-last syllable and they both end on the same sounds.
Anyway, far from proof-read, is something I made:

I constructed it "backwards" so to speak - starting with the final words of the sentence. It was a lot harder for me than I had anticipated, but in a good way.
Quote:
Tuilére-laire
Hrivë utulie nómenna sina [AFAIK the-nna ending should probably go on sina, but I sacrificed it for the sake of rhyme]
Ar avanië Anarelva laurina [I always mess up with auta- so I'm unsure if this is right?]
Altë tasarë ar tauri firini
Nairë norër ar quildë irini
Mal ter yeni unoti, [Could únotima possible express "uncountable" better than únote?]
cemenessë varna
húmar carni húmelloti
[I don't know if it's more correct to go with f's or h's in this case... but the alliteration will persist eighter way :D]
tenna tuilë vincarna


I think that should translate to something like
Spring-poem
Winter has come towards/to these lands
And our [incl] golden sun has dissapeared/gone away
Great willows and dead forests
Empty lands and quiet towns
But through years uncounted
Safe in the earth
red poppies are sleeping
until new/newly-made spring


So that's my progress so far - tear it apart if you so desire ;)
I'm going to be away from reliable internet until this sunday 28/6, so I'll only be able to respond after then though.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 24th, 2015, 5:55 pm 
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I see. I don't know near as much about the language as you but that does make sense.

Honestly I think it sounds good in elvish... but even better in English! I think you did a very good job. Can't critique your elvish grammar and rhyming etc... but as a poet myself I do indeed like the piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 25th, 2015, 3:17 pm 
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Quote:
Tuilére-laire
Hrivë utulie nómenna sina [AFAIK the-nna ending should probably go on sina, but I sacrificed it for the sake of rhyme]
Ar avanië Anarelva laurina [I always mess up with auta- so I'm unsure if this is right?]
Altë tasarë ar tauri firini
Nairë norër ar quildë irini
Mal ter yeni unoti, [Could únotima possible express "uncountable" better than únote?]
cemenessë varna
húmar carni húmelloti [I don't know if it's more correct to go with f's or h's in this case... but the alliteration will persist eighter way :D]
tenna tuilë vincarna


Spring-poem
Winter has come towards/to these lands
And our [incl] golden sun has disappeared/gone away
Great willows and dead forests
Empty lands and quiet towns
But through years uncounted
Safe in the earth
red poppies are sleeping
until new/newly-made spring


The first sentence translates as "Winter has come to this land" if you want the plural it should be nómennar sinë or nómi sinannar.

You're missing the long vowels in a lot of places: hrívë, utúlië, avánië, nórë.

Plural of nórë should be nóri (unless you have a citation for an irregular plural, if you do LMK!). Plural of taþar is taþari.

Yes, I would have únótima/ë as uncountable. Yén(i) is for long elven year (144 solar years), Loa(r) or Coranar(i) is for solar years.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 30th, 2015, 10:16 am 
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Quote:
The first sentence translates as "Winter has come to this land" if you want the plural it should be nómennar sinë or nómi sinannar.

You're missing the long vowels in a lot of places: hrívë, utúlië, avánië, nórë.

Plural of nórë should be nóri (unless you have a citation for an irregular plural, if you do LMK!). Plural of taþar is taþari.

Yes, I would have únótima/ë as uncountable. Yén(i) is for long elven year (144 solar years), Loa(r) or Coranar(i) is for solar years.


Hantanyel. Nalyë saila! I've made remembering the ë a habit by now, but those long vowels are so easy to forget...
I'm satisfied with the first sentence - i think it was at the quenya-to-english translation that I messed up, so thats a welcome change of pace. Usually it's the other way 'round :D.
So with alterations we end up with something like this:

Hrívë utúlie nómenna sina
Ar avánië Anarelva laurina
Altë tasari ar tauri firini
Nairë nóri ar quildë irini
Mal ter loar únótima,
cemenessë varna
húmar carni húmelloti
tenna tuilë vincarna

The second-to-last last rhyme did not survive (RIP) but I will still consider this a succesful experiment.

Just one last question: You wrote tasari with a þ - do you think it is most correct to use that "th" sound? There is that shift "th"->"s" in later quenya...
(Unrelated, but I love the þ-sound. It makes me think of icelandic/old norse languages... Which I guess is wierd because you have th in English too, and English is much more common :P.)


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 30th, 2015, 3:28 pm 
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I "speak" First Age Fëanorian Quenya and keep þ (and ñ and initial w) because the Fëanor and his sons are my favourite characters. It's also helpful to write þ as even after the sound change it's still written with þúlë in Tengwar.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: June 30th, 2015, 5:53 pm 
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Agreed that it helps with tengwar transcribing - in that way it's pretty practical.

Also something I just wanted to share: after poking around on Fauskangers site i stumbled upon his norse site http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/hkf.htm
It's kind of wierd to me that the person who I've mostly associated with dense linguistics also is the author of articles such as "Moro med DVD" (Fun with DVD) og "Saurons gode sider" (Sauron's good qualities). The first is just a list of details he noticed while watching LoTR. Exelllent observations such as:
Quote:
En av de mest atmosfæriske ekstra scenene på den utvidede DVD-versjonen viser hvordan et følge med alver passerer Frodo og Sam i skogen. Vi har litt nydelig alvesang her også; de første ordene vi kan skille ut er mi 'aladhremmin ennorath... Hvis man bruker zoom-funksjonen på DVD-spilleren, vil imidlertid et lite erotisk innspill komme til syne.
Legg nøye merke til den andre hesten i rekken. Idet alvene synger ennorath, kan man tydelig se hvordan den stikker hodet fram og lukter på baken til hesten som går framfor den...


"One of the most atmospheric extra scenes on the extended DVD-version shows how a group of elves pass Frodo and Sam in the wood. We have a bit of lovely elfsong here too, the first words we can seperate are "aladhremmin ennorath"... If you use the zoom-function on the DVD-player, a little erotic scene will be visible. Carefully notice the second horse in the row. When the elves sing ennorath, it is clearly visible how it sticks its head forward and smells the behind of the horse that walks before it..."

So if you're wondering what he's up to nowadays it apparantly includes watching LoTR extended edition and zooming in. But that aside, I was impressed by his translation of the new testament, the original reason i came to the site...

Are any of you working on any projects?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: July 1st, 2015, 1:12 am 
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As far as Quenya is concerned, my only project is my website. I have no translation or composition projects at the moment (well there's this poem I have two lines of haha).


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: July 1st, 2015, 9:31 am 
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Quote:
(Unrelated, but I love the þ-sound. It makes me think of icelandic/old norse languages... Which I guess is wierd because you have th in English too, and English is much more common :P.)


As a side note (and not that you said otherwise), the early sound in Quenya is not the "interdental" -th- of English (voiced or unvoiced), but made with the tip of the tongue behind the upper teeth. What I'm not sure about is its earlier history, but before the alteration anyway, it seems to have become s all the more easier in Exilic Quenya due to this.

That said, I'm with Feanor too about this, and would have voted for an unchange :)


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: July 1st, 2015, 2:42 pm 
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Being much less knowledgable in this than the three of you I am a little lost but Infeel like I am learning something at least.

Is it always an i on the end to pluralize something? (Nori, tapari)

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: July 2nd, 2015, 12:46 am 
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Meneldilme wrote:
It's also helpful to write þ as even after the sound change it's still written with þúlë in Tengwar.

Indeed, and Tolkien sometimes uses þ in his Quenya sentences, like á þak' i fende, mekin "Close the door, please!" (PE22:166).

Curufine wrote:
Are any of you working on any projects?

Way too many (as is usual). I've postponed my indexing of PE18 so that I can work on PE22, which arrived on the 22nd. I just finished writing up a list of all the phrases within PE22 (mostly in the documents from the 40s and late 40s, with very few in the c. 1950 one, and a bit in 1969's), which comes to around 7 pages in Word with font size 14, single-spaced, one phrase per line (with translations omitted): as far as phrases go, quite a lot of Qenya + Quenya, with some Common Eldarin, a bit of Sindarin, and a tiny amount of Old Noldorin. Once I tweak the formatting I'll probably upload it to my tumblr (I rediscovered my Tolkienian one!) and the Google+ group where we've been discussing some of the material in PE22. After that's finished, I'll start working on indexing the whole thing (not just phrases), which is going to be a royal pain, given the large amount of vocabulary and conjugation charts. With all those words to cite, it might as well be a mix of one of the earlier lexicons and the declension charts in PE21. I imagine the index will take quite a while, and if he's doing one David Giraudeau will probably finish his before mine - though I doubt he'll include all the conjugations and rejected forms (and he might just focus on Q(u)enya), so that's a given. Once I finish PE22's (whew) and PE18's, I'll move on to PE16's, and after that I'm going to go through all the VTs and PEs and compile an updated list of all the cross-references within them to unpublished documents, pointing out which (and where) have since been published in later volumes (partially or in full), and which still remain unpublished. That should take a while as well.

Other than that, I was working on a post for the Tolkien Society on Facebook on dating the appearance of 1st pl. clusivity in Elvish (probably Leeds-era, as far as I can tell right now), though that's become rather more detailed than it needs to be. I've also been meaning to finish writing up schematics of the currently attested Noldorin/Beleriandic/Sindarin pronouns (standalone, suffixes, etc.), as we were arguing about them on G+.

Most of my time lately has been dedicated to going through PE22 again and again, analyzing and quoting forms for discussion on G+, especially some Sindarin brain-wrackers. I think the Quenya is easier to comprehend (given that there's so much more of it, in overwhelming and contradictory abundance), but the little Sindarin we get (well, the verb conjugation anyway) is throwing us for a loop.

Meneldilme wrote:
As far as Quenya is concerned, my only project is my website.
If you mean the Quenya verb conjugations, do you have a copy of PE22? It has a large amount of information on the various verb classes and their differing conjugations, though the revisions throughout the decades (40s, late 40s, ~1950, and ~1969) aren't exactly in sync for how to conjugate the tenses (or sometimes, which tenses exist, like the various past continuous, pluperfect, past future, future perfect and whatnot, which only show up in certain stages). Some of it contradicts the forms we have, and some of it corrects/modifies assumptions/theories we've had, which up to now haven't been as class-based (e.g. which verbs take future in -uva, -úva, and -auva - or occasionally other forms for historical-phonological reasons).

Jax Nova wrote:
Is it always an i on the end to pluralize something? (Nori, tapari)

For the most part in later Quenya, nouns and adjectives ending in -e get pluralized in -i, though there are some examples of -er nouns which don't seem to follow an explicable pattern, especially when we have both forms attested for the same word (like esse). ?Most? nouns ending in vowels are pluralized with -r, as are verbs, though earlier in the languages (internally, in Middle-earth) this wasn't always the case. I'll have to dig out PE21 to brush up on that. Adjectives ending in -e tend to pluralize in -i, and -eä as -ië, at least in later (external) Quenya, though there's a difference between sindë pekkuvor "grey squirrels" and sindar "(the) grey ones". We also have a "partitive plural" in Quenya, -li, which is more like "some" or "many", e.g. tas kennen nótime eldali "I saw a few elves there" (PE22:155), as well as kirya karie "'ship-making,' making a ship/ships" and karie kiryali "making some ships" (PE22:120). We also see pluralization with -i for nouns/adjectives ending in a consonant.

There are of course exceptions, and historical cases with certain developments (e.g. rusco, pl. rusqui because it's from original ruscu-, or other words with "stem forms" like Silmaril, Silmarilli, and ones like quén, pl. queni), but I've just given a general overview (not comprehensive). Earlier Qenya had other forms, like úmëa, pl. úmëai, and suffixing/infixing -l, but I won't get into that.

Edit: I had forgotten to mention -ië into -ier.


Last edited by Tyrhael on July 2nd, 2015, 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: July 2nd, 2015, 11:24 am 
Warden of the Knight
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Wow, so it much more complicated than just adding a particular sufix to a word to pluralize it. Man I wish I was better at languages. It is so much to take in and I have a real hard time retaining it but I really wish I could learn it.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Appreciate Quenya - Resources and help for courses
PostPosted: July 2nd, 2015, 2:28 pm 
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Quote:
Adjectives ending in -e tend to pluralize in -i, and -eä as -ië, at least in later (external) Quenya, though there's a difference between sindë pekkuvor "grey squirrels" and sindar "(the) grey ones".


Isn't the difference here is that for *þindar* you're using the adjective as a noun, and therefore it forms it's plural as a noun.

I would write:

i culuinë sardi "orange stones"

but

i cuiluinar "the oranges" (as in the various orange colours)


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