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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: October 22nd, 2015, 7:07 am 
Gondorian
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"King Stone" might be *Aragon... or longer form *Aragond I guess.

Although I know you weren't really asking :-D


"The system by which all the names from Malvegil onwards are trisyllabic, and have only one ‘significant’ element‡ (ara being used where the final element was of one syllable; but ar in other cases) is peculiar to this line of names. The ara is prob. derived from cases where aran "king" lost its n phonetically (as Arathorn), ara- then being used in other cases." JRRT, letters


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: October 22nd, 2015, 12:24 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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As I said... *points to th poster above*. Some of our members have a lot of knowledge in this area! :D

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: October 31st, 2015, 3:09 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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Hey! Really cool idea. There are a few members here that I am sure could help you out. I could look up the idividual words for you but I am at a loss when it comes to grammar and sentence structure etc... So I won't try. Hopefully one of the others will get on and have an answer for you.


Inwoukd say, beware of the translators. They often times don't do the best job from my understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: October 31st, 2015, 4:54 pm 
Gondorian
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Hi, I'm no expert but that's the way I would write it, except for the first character in the word "you". Tolkien wrote this word twice in his letter to Hugh Brogan, and he used the character as noted in the following link.

http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_general_english.htm

Actually, under the orthographic spelling section, Mans sets out the characters for y and ou. This is the "general mode" for English.

Unless there is something about the font here? Anyway in Tolkien's version this character is "open" at the top (yours is closed) so to speak, and looks a bit like a Roman u in certain fonts. Or maybe there is more than one way... but (lazy) I only checked the Brogan letter, which agrees with Mans' chart.

And where else did you ask, if you don't mind me asking :)


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: October 31st, 2015, 6:43 pm 
Gondorian
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By the way, it might be possible to write this in Neo-Quenya (I only refer to Tolkien made examples of Elvish as Quenya or Sindarin), that is, it might be possible to write this in an Elvish language and the Elvish script. Maybe...

... tye hilyuvanye "you I shall follow" -- or with respect to the second word, shorter *hilyuvan "follow-shall-I"

This employs a verb hilya- "to follow", plus the future tense (in this example the final a in hilya arguably drops out when the future marker is added), plus the pronoun for "I" all in one word. The first word is tye "you, thou" (familiar). Quenya can sometimes express a lot with one word, such as Tolkien's laituvalmet for example, "we shall bless them"

Admittedly I didn't check Tolkien's (relatively recent) Words, Phrases and Passages to see if we have something like that attested, or another possible verb for "follow". Again I'm a bit lazy, but folks writing in Neo-Quenya have used *hilyuva for "will follow" anyway.

Of course, even if "correct enough" then you have to use a different mode to write that in Elvish characters, instead of the English.

The English is safer than the Elvish in any case. I mean we know it's not Neo-English ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: November 3rd, 2015, 11:46 am 
Gondorian
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It's always good to seek out multiple opinions. I usually do not trust "machinery" on the web... then again I'm just some guy on the web!

:-D

Anyway the "machine" gave you a transcription (the language remains English but the letters alter from Roman to Elvish), as a translation would have given you Elvish words like my "tye hilyuvan" (here in Roman letters of course). But I would trust computer translators even less, since Tolkien's invented languages are not nearly as finished as they might appear to be (not to mention Tolkien changing his mind so often), and some "translators" are really only name generators as well (they have nothing to do with meaning really).

Anyway, to stop blathering and actually try to answer your question...

... if it was me I would alter that one "tengwa" (letter) and follow Tolkien here. If there is another arguable way to use the letter with a closed top (even another example from JRRT himself), then so be it, but that would take more digging, and (to my lazy mind) why dig further if we already have a Tolkien made example (if you check out the book The Letters of JRR Tolkien the letter to Hugh Brogan is letter number 118, which is also footnoted in the back)?

Actually I'm a bit surprised at how well the "machine" worked for you. Mans Bjorkman (author of the linked site Amanye Tenceli) knows his way around the Tengwar far better than I do, but going by his chart (general mode for English, orthographic spelling) everything but the y in "you" seems to line up with what you posted here.

At least as I think I understand things :)


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: May 7th, 2016, 9:11 pm 
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Hi! I need a Sindarin translation of "there is much you have done" for a speech I am making. A pronunciation guide would also be helpful. Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: May 8th, 2016, 4:50 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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Hey! Welcome to the forum! :)

I'd love to help you out but all I could do is look up each word in my elvish dictionary. I couldn't say for sure on pronunciation or grammar arrangement.

There are, however, several knowledgeable people here that could help you out with all of that.

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: March 31st, 2017, 11:31 am 
Gondorian
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I've had a request for a translation of "In this abode, does peace dwell". Elrond and Galadriel would know Quenya, and for daily chat would speak a Quenya influenced Sindarin. I chose Quenya, or actually Neo-quenya as I call it [distinct from Tolkien-made Quenya], and tentatively came up with the following, hopefully "correct enough", non-expert suggestion!

mi marda sina, mare raine "in this house, dwells/abides peace [in house this, dwells peace]"

Or [perhaps better] replace the verb *mare with *mára [see third note below].


__________

1) raine "peace" is attested in Vinyar Tengwar 44

2) The verb *mar- is in an "aorist" form for the first suggestion [mare], to suggest timelessness. Again see the following on sina about this; but anyway I note the similarity of the Quenya verb "to dwell, abide" to the Quenya noun marda "dwelling, house", which makes sense.

3) sina might [not sure] also include a sense of "now", as in "this, here, now". If so, not really sure the aorist verb is the way to go with sina also in play! The present continuative tense would rather be *mára [long a], meaning "[peace is] abiding/continues to dwell"... which doesn't sound that great in English, but it's the Quenya that matters.

4) mi note Galadriel's mi oromardi "in lofty halls" [there seems to be some question about the vowel i being long or short here, but one has to choose, so I chose short i... and in Words, Phrases and Passages at least, Tolkien notes that the long vowel version means "in the" as opposed to short vowel version "in".

5) vanda sina "this oath" attested in Cirion and Eorl, Unfinished Tales [sina follows the noun there, so I followed marda here]

6) Or, one could maybe more simply, or more "poetically", say *sinome, raine "in this place, peace", considering Aragorn's sinome maruvan "In this place I will abide" [The Steward and the King], which makes me think of another possibility that no one asked for (!) *sinome, raine maruva "In this place, peace will [in the future] dwell".

... if one is already in one's house especially, as the "abode, house" part would be a given :-D


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: March 31st, 2017, 5:26 pm 
Gondorian
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Elthir, I knew about raine for peace, but what about sérë? I use it in closing a private message or certain e-mails, like instead of sincerely or regards.

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: March 31st, 2017, 7:40 pm 
Gondorian
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Hi Finde

I considered sére but became a bit uncertain when reading about "text A II" in Vinyar Tengwar 44. Tolkien began with [I'm not including the rest of the example here of course]...

Text A I: síve "peace"

Text A II: sére revised to raine

Síve actually appears in a late note [May 1969] were it's derived from a base SIB- "rest, quiet", and sére appears with a gloss "rest, repose, peace" back in a much earlier text Etymologies [a fairly early text, a text written before Tolkien called any language "Sindarin", for example], and the base there was SED-

I couldn't find any of these words in Words, Phrases, and Passages, except I did notice a word raina "smiling, gracious, sweet-faced" and [back to editorial commentary in VT 44] "If this is so, then it implies that raine comes from the benevolence of God, i.e. from God smiling upon his people."

And if that is so... I like it :-D

Sére might be attested in something later than Etymologies, I can't recall right now, but as I had found something I liked, I stopped checking sources.


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: March 31st, 2017, 7:53 pm 
Gondorian
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Thank you, Elthir! So it has only the é with an accent and the ë on the end doesn't have one? If I keep using it, I want to use it correctly, even if it's out of date... :P

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: March 31st, 2017, 11:40 pm 
Gondorian
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That's right Finde, in sére the first e is long [noted by the acute accent], final e is short. And the diaeresis is up to the writer. Tolkien himself sometimes used one, sometimes not. There's no difference in pronunciation between sére and sérë for example.

Long vowels should be marked however, and are properly marked in both Roman and Elvish writing. Sometimes I'm too lazy and don't mark them, but I usually try to when suggesting a translation or a transcription.

You probably know all this, but some folks get confused because the diaeresis, for instance, when employed to write some real world languages, can represent a different sound when contrasted with the same vowel without a diaeresis.


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: April 1st, 2017, 11:34 am 
Gondorian
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Silmalassë wrote:
Yeah, I think it's a good thing because we can metamorphose as needed. I just wanted an Elven name, and I didn't know how to translate "Silverleaf" into what I wanted. So.....yeah.....


I tried to come up with a [Neo] Sindarin version, but I have to say I'm not in love with Celeblas, for example [though -bl- sounds nice enough in Mablung). Silivrellas [primary stress: silivrEllas, as in silmalAsse] seems better. I'm not wholly in love with this one either, for some reason. The meaning would be "Glittering [white]-leaf" at least; and Tolkien noted that silivren would recall the Silmarils to Elvish minds [silivren + lass, based on (what appears to be) mithren + lass -- Mithrellas].

I mean, if you want to change again for the sake of change, and are in a more Sindarin mood :)

Another possible Quenya form is Telpelasse, which is *possibly* (my guess) an acceptable Telerin form as well (assuming the Telerin word for leaf is also *lasse, see below). Don't get me wrong, I like Silmalasse, I'm just playing with names for my own amusement!

Thorsten Renk has a website called Parma Tyelpelassiva "The book of silver leaves", which uses a different Quenya word for "silver", but I like the [still Quenya] Telerin influenced form telpe [Telperion]. I noticed too that Thorsten wrote a Neo-Telerin poem called Lassi vanuai "The leaves are gone", in which he employs a Telerin plural lassi "leaves", suggesting he would agree with the notion of the singular and plural as in Quenya.

Oh, and I'm responding to your post... em, from another thread :whistle:


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: April 1st, 2017, 8:59 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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*reads through for my own enjoyment*

Carry on! I'm enjoying the read! :D

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