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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 4:44 pm 
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dreamingfifi wrote:
Maerthel wrote:
dreamingfifi wrote:
As in Ecthel, Maerthel wouldn't have an A at the end. There are several feminine name suffixes (an A isn't one of them) in Sindarin. I'd suggest -il, -el, -eth, -iel, or -ien


Ah thank you again. I was wondering why the A was left off (sorry I'm just starting to work with the elven languages)
No problem! I should have made that clearer.

The -thel of "ecthel" is from the word "thela", so we can guess that the -A drops off when put into a compound word.


:) I also just checked out your site, Your Sindarin Textbook and bookmarked it :) Very helpful

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 4:47 pm 
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I personally love the names section on here. I'm always using it for character names in my RPing and in the stories I write.

For proper translations I always use CoE. (So if my friends ask me what their Elvish name would be I go on CoE and find out both the Sindarin and Quenya translations and give them a list of all of them... )

Actually, dreamingfifi would you do me a massive favour please? I've never been able to find an actual translation of the name Annabelle. It's my full first name. The meaning is grace (the Anna part) and beauty (the belle part.)
I know there's several meanings for "grace" but I prefer the ones that don't involve the religious meaning.
:D

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 5:02 pm 
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Again, I'm still new at this, but I looked up the meaning of Annabelle the way you spell it and got Grace (http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.co ... belle.html)
So these were the three names I found that meant grace according to CoE:
Idhreneth (thoughtful-maiden), Idhreniel, Idhrenwen
Am I doing it right? :confused:

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 5:24 pm 
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dreamingfifi wrote:
I'm getting to work on that. I'm writing a thorough critique of the various sections. Alas, very little of "Arweb"'s word can be salvaged, because it was deeply flawed from the onset.

I know she isn't a linguist - it really shows. She shouldn't have dived into this when she didn't know what she was doing. Scrap that - after trying this, she should have been open to the criticisms that linguists sent to her. She knew she wasn't an expert, so when people pointed out the flaws - she should have fixed them or taken the sections down!

This website's Elvish section is worse than Grelvish because it has the mask of respectability while doing the same exact thing that the authors of Grelvish did.


Let's try not to get rude about this, yeah? :) I don't know anything about it, but it's entirely possible there hasn't actually been much negative feedback on the Elvish section. Furthermore, no one's ever claimed that AU's elvish section has been put together by a professional - it's a fansite made by a fan.
If you want to help improve this part of the site, that's wonderful, but please do do without disrespecting or belittling the effort that ithers have put into it.

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 6:00 pm 
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Annabelle has two possible origins. One is a combination of "Anna" and "Belle", and the other is "Amabel" which means "Loveable". Anna (Hebrew) means "Grace of God" and "Belle" (French) means "beauty".

So, leaving the "god" part out is difficult, because there isn't really a word for any other grace in Sindarin or Quenya.

Tolkien liked to translate various prayers into Quenya and Sindarin, so we do have two words for "grace of God" - Eruanna (god-gift) and Erulissë (god-sweetness) [Lissë also means "honey".] Both of them in Quenya - none for Sindarin, alas. So, I suppose that i we just took "Eru" out of "Eruanna" and "Erulissë" we have something to work with - if you don't mind the distortion of the meaning.

Quenya: (the genderless forms)
Vanyanna [vanya+anna] /van.'jan.na/
Lelyanna [lelya+anna] /lɛl.'jan.na/
Vanimanna [vanima+anna] /va.ni.'man.na/
Vanyalissë [vanya+lissë] /van.ja.'lis.sɛ/
Lelyalissë [lelya+lissë] /lɛl.ja.'lis.sɛ/
Vanimalissë [vanima+lissë] /va.ni.ma.'lis.sɛ/(This one is getting a little too long.)
Sindarin: (Also genderless)
Bainant [bain+ant] /'baj.nant/
Deilant [deil+ant] /'dej.lant/
Glívain [glî+bain] /'gliˑ.vajn/
Glídhail [glî+dail] /'gliˑ.ðajl̡/

The reason that the word order is switched in the Sindarin names is that it's much more flexible in Sindarin. Tolkien explains this pretty clearly in PE17 page 36.
Quote:
The adjective element usually follows in Sindarin but in certain old elements the older order is maintained, as e.g. with mor- 'black' {morgul beside gul-dur}; and in names the order could be shifted for euphonic reasons; so Fanuiðol for normal Dol-fanui.

Also, deil and dail are variants of eachother. Deil occurs non-final, and dail occurs at the ends of words. This has to do with a change in Sindarin phonology that was fairly late, leaving these variants in many words and names. The original/older form is deil.

Quote:
Let's try not to get rude about this, yeah? :) I don't know anything about it, but it's entirely possible there hasn't actually been much negative feedback on the Elvish section. Furthermore, no one's ever claimed that AU's elvish section has been put together by a professional - it's a fansite made by a fan.
If you want to help improve this part of the site, that's wonderful, but please do do without disrespecting or belittling the effort that ithers have put into it.
I'm not being rude, I'm being frank and too the point. I don't mean to sound insulting, but my emotions on this topic are quite fierce. I'll try harder to keep them in check. And yes, someone other than me has noticed the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 6:09 pm 
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Keep in mind it hasn't been worked on since-- gosh, 2005 at the latest, but probably earlier. And it's main purpose (especially for the name section) was to amuse and satisfy your average movie-obsessed fan looking for a pretty sounding name that roughly translated into their own. Our webmistress did the best she could with the resources that were available to her back then, but she was just a teenager and hasn't had hardly any time to give towards improving the site for a good six years at least.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, it is truly wonderful that you want to improve the elvish! I would recommend, though, that instead of writing a critique, you go ahead and re-write the sections. The coders probably won't be able to give the effort to go through and edit it point by point. It's much easier on them if you can give them a page of text to throw up on the site. :)

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 6:27 pm 
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Okay, I can do that.

For what I can tell, the only addition to the analysis done by G-i-P on the movie scripts is the pronunciation, and I can correct those pretty easily. The wordlists, name-lists, and the phrasebook might be beyond saving though.

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 20th, 2012, 11:18 pm 
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dreamingfifi wrote:
(...) thela - spearpopint


I think Tolkien altered the meaning of Ecthelion at least three times, and in the last incarnation I'm aware of, this name had to do in part with STEL- 'remain firm', and STELEG- (spearpoint and so on) from Etymologies was out, at least here.

Interesting in any case: in the revised Fall of Gondolin Aegthelion still has a noted 'point' upon his helm -- the better to slay Gothmog with? as he had done in the very early version? Although his name back then was fountain-related if I recall correctly.

Anyway, is thela from STELEG- attested in a Sindarin context? just wondering not arguing :)


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 21st, 2012, 12:27 am 
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*pulls out her copy of The Etymologies*

Yup, it's listed under STELEG. It's Noldorin (Tolkien's earlier version of Sindarin wherein the Noldor spoke it.)

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 11:10 am 
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By the way dreamingfifi, I just realized that you're the person who writes (on your website) that Elves are androgynous, and implies that the Eldar did not purposely use the same name as another Elf.

I've encountered these particular things on the web before -- and if memory serves, sometimes (or at least once) with links to your site as part of the argument for each matter. Or maybe I just stumbled upon the site; I can't remember now. Anyway, this is not the thread for it obviously, but let's just say I would have written these explanations differently.

:)


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 1:21 pm 
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They aren't totally androgynous, especially when women are having children, but some of the differences between the sexes don't exist for them. Men don't have beards, and their bodies were described by Tolkien as:

Quote:
There was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.


Elves don't take the names of other Elves directly - except for one of their parent's names. The Father-name, the first name they receive when they are born will be one of their parent's names - albeit often altered with a patronymic suffix added to it. The point is, no one is going to take Lúthien's name as their own. Not intentionally. There were two Legolases - but the two had never heard of each other and didn't know that the other existed. There also are two Rúmils, but their names have different meanings and come from different languages! So, barring coincidence and father names - names aren't repeated.

How would you describe these concepts?

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2012, 1:40 pm 
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I'll start another thread on it :)


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 24th, 2012, 6:28 pm 
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I have a bit of an odd request. I've looked through the Elvish dictionary and pieced together "The North Wind" (Forodsûl); but it looks nothing like other male Elvish names. I intend to use the name for a Deity in a forum of mine, and I would loathe to be off on grammar. Could Forodsûl actually be a proper name, or would there be some prefix, suffix, or some other change made to it?


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 3:18 am 
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So, it looks like you want Sindarin. "Sûl" is a borrowed word from Quenya, and not true Sindarin, but it looks like this isn't going to be used in connection with LotR, so I guess that distinction doesn't matter.

In Sindarin, there are a lot of words for "north" or "northern".
forn
forodren
fuir
forod
forven

Combining these with "sûl" (which is reduced to "súl" because it's in a compound) and you get:
Forsúl
Forodressúl
Fuirsúl
Forossúl (This is the one closest to what you've got now)
Forvessúl

Or you could switch the order in a true Sindarin fashion and get:
Súlforn
Súlforodren
Súlfuir
Súlforod
Súlforven

Or you could use a different word for "wind", which is "gwae(w)".
Gwaeforn / Forngwaew
Gwaeforodren / Forodrengwaew
Gwaefuir / Fuirwaew
Gwaeforod / Forogwaew
Gwaeforven / Forvengwaew

The simplest masculine suffix you can add is "-on", which will interact with the ends of the names in various ways.

Forsúlon
Forodressúlon (I think this one is getting too long... 5 syllables!)
Fuirsúlon
Forossúlon
Forvessúlon
Súlfornor
Súlforodrenor (again, too long)
Súlfuiron
Súlforodon
Súlforvenor
Gwaefornor
Forngwaeon
Gwaeforodrenor (too long for my tastes)
Forodrengwaeon (this one too)
Gwaefuiron
Fuirwaeon
Gwaeforodon
Forogwaeon
Gwaeforvenor
Forvengwaeon

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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 3:30 pm 
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After trying them out, I've decided on Súlfuiron, since it is just the right length and rolls off the tongue well.

Thank you very much for the help. I had no idea Elvish was such a complex language - Tolkien's masterpiece continues to surprise me even now.


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 Post subject: Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 11:08 pm 
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dreamingfifi wrote:
"Sûl" is a borrowed word from Quenya, and not true Sindarin,...


Do we know this for sure (visual pun intended)? In a text later than Etymologies Tolkien wrote (reduced here for brevity): 'To describe this [...] they used the THU- [or SŪ] (...) formulated on SŪ chiefly were Q. sūre (i), S sūl. CF Manwe Sulimo or Thurimo, thule, S Thu. (...)'

Found in Words, Phrases and Passages, entry thule, sule.


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