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TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
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Author:  dreamingfifi [ January 31st, 2012, 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
Interesting. (It took a bit of hunting, but I found it. Page 124 for future reference.) That's the only place a dual root for this is suggested. It would appear that they ended up with different meanings in Sindarin, as "Weathertop" - "Amon Sûl" appears to reference the wind of weather, not "breath" or "blowing forth spirit", and because of the TH>S change in Quenya, these words appear to have merged.

Everywhere else the root is always THŪ, so I figured that Sûl would be the borrowed from late Quenya súlë. Nowhere does TH>S in Sindarin's history, so the change must have come from Quenya.

Working with PE17 can be tricky, because it has a lot of half-formed ideas that were whims that he kept changing back and forth. Like the word "and". It appears that this dual root was one that he made up on the spot, as he wrote that passage. Use it if you like.

Sûl is most definitely useable from the Númenorean and Exilic perspectives, but I'm unsure that Tolkien meant for the two roots to have existed all along, or if the illusion that they did came from the borrowing of the word and concept from the Noldorin exiles. It's not uncommon for Tolkien to work in "errors" into the Etymologies he wrote, as though they were written by the Elves themselves, trying to decipher the distant past.
Author:  Elthir [ January 31st, 2012, 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
Quote:
Working with PE17 can be tricky, because it has a lot of half-formed ideas that were whims that he kept changing back and forth. Like the word "and". It appears that this dual root was one that he made up on the spot, as he wrote that passage. Use it if you like.


SŪ- appears for the entry on súrinen as well (page 62), for example, along with SUR(U) 'noise of wind'.

Quote:
Sûl is most definitely useable from the Númenorean and Exilic perspectives, but I'm unsure that Tolkien meant for the two roots to have existed all along, or if the illusion that they did came from the borrowing of the word and concept from the Noldorin exiles. It's not uncommon for Tolkien to work in "errors" into the Etymologies he wrote, as though they were written by the Elves themselves, trying to decipher the distant past.


Well maybe that illusion prevails as internally true, and maybe it doesn't :)

If we view this entry as not written by Tolkien as author, the fictive writer appears to be explaining Sindarin sūl from a root SŪ- and could have likewise noted this word as possibly being a borrowing from Quenya -- but that really seems to be the idea of Tolkien readers in the first place, based on THŪ- in Etymologies for instance -- not that this is faulty reasoning of course, but (so far) I don't see any great reason why SŪ- should necessarily be any more illusory than another root.
Author:  dreamingfifi [ February 1st, 2012, 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
It does seem that Tolkien was trying out every possible root for every word at once, and trying them out over and over. In PE17 there are many alternate roots for words, like STOL/THOL (off the top of my head - too much homework to look into it more right now) where he wasn't sure which one would work better - both end with an S in Quenya and TH in Sindarin.
Author:  Elthir [ February 2nd, 2012, 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
dreamingfifi wrote:
It does seem that Tolkien was trying out every possible root for every word at once, and trying them out over and over. In PE17 there are many alternate roots for words, like STOL/THOL (off the top of my head - too much homework to look into it more right now) where he wasn't sure which one would work better - both end with an S in Quenya and TH in Sindarin.


You seem to be suggesting here that maybe Tolkien was just trying out a root SŪ- and so maybe it wasn't written in stone. Well, once again maybe -- or maybe something else.

:)


We can't read Tolkien's mind obviously, but in the two entries noted so far in which the root SŪ- is concerned, it appears just as viable as other roots, and produces Sindarin sûl -- and thus this word need not be a borrowing in my opinion, as seemingly theoried by readers employing the much earlier work Etymologies for example -- Etymologies incidentally, to point out for anyone in the thread who might not know, being itself an unfinished, abandoned linguistic document with layers of revision; also describing Noldorin not Sindarin, as the ultimate history of the languages had yet to be imagined at this point.

Tolkien can sometimes change his mind back and forth of course -- he even altered certain already published things as well -- but it's not like the entry for surinen gives reason to think SŪ- and SUR(U) are part of some confusing series of external revisions here (in PE17), nor in my opinion, does the entry on thule necessarily.


I'll grant you, in general using PE17 can be tricky, but so can using Etymologies be tricky, or even older linguistic commentary or examples.
Author:  dreamingfifi [ February 2nd, 2012, 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
In Tolkien-linguistics, there is little in the way of absolutes.
Author:  smcfarland [ February 3rd, 2012, 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
My sister and I would love to get a tattoo done in Sindarin. What we really want is little/youger sister and big/older/elder sister in Sindarin. But Im having some trouble finding it. And if there is no translation for that we just want sister. But I only found ones that mean associate, sworn sisters, etc.What is the Sindarin word for a blood related sister?

Your help is really appreciated!
Author:  dreamingfifi [ February 5th, 2012, 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
^answered in e-mail
Author:  Elthir [ February 5th, 2012, 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
dreamingfifi wrote:
^answered in e-mail


Why not here?
Author:  dreamingfifi [ February 5th, 2012, 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
Because I found the e-mail in my inbox before I checked the forum.
Author:  Elthir [ February 5th, 2012, 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
Ok, but still, why not post what your answer is here, since you posted here anyway, that you answered the request.
Author:  Elthir [ February 7th, 2012, 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
For myself I would not have chosen anything with thêl in case it was superseded, noting the opinion (admittedly an opinion and stated with 'probably' as well) of the editors of Vinyar Tengwar here: '(just as NETH- 'sister' in HFN probably replaces the Etymologies base THEL-, THELES- 'sister').'


Anyway I would suggest nîth for the older sister, and nethig 'little sister' for the younger sister. To my mind this works well enough by comparison, as the younger sister will 'always' be younger, and in comparison there is really no need, I think, to mark the older sister as older. In any case the sisters will get the intended meaning, and it seems charming enough to me.

My second choice would be nîth (for the older) and neth (for the younger).


And this also keeps things wholly attested, since a tattoo is desired. For a tattoo it would seem to me that attested by Tolkien is best, even over something considered 'correct Neo-Sindarin' by the person constructing it.

A last point: nethig for example, in the context of the essay it appears in, is a name of a particular finger, as part of the Eldarin 'play names' for fingers. 'Little sister' thus refers to a finger as 'little father' also refers to another finger -- although so far I would agree that one could arguably use this word otherwise. For more on that, see 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals' and related writings by J.R.R. Tolkien, published in Vinyar Tengwar 47 and 48, edited by Patrick H. Wynne.



That's my opinion at least, smcfarland. If you're still looking in here anyway :)
Author:  Beleg [ March 16th, 2012, 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
I've been trying to write the phrase 'its just a ride' in elvish.

So far I have 'Ta naa fael lend' which I hope isays its just a journey, because the only words I could find for ride were verbs.

Any pointers??
Author:  Wicho [ March 16th, 2012, 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
Hey guys ... I need your help please!! I need to translate
>>> Kamila Light of my life. I love you forever and ever.
To Sindarin, Quenya and Tengwar in it´s respective font.

Please guys!!! Your help will be very much appreciated!!!
Author:  starsnocturnelle [ April 4th, 2012, 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
Hi!

I am new here and looking for someone who would be kind enough to check the following translations (taken from the U-D Song Lyrics section) and somehow write these in Tengwar please! :-D Also, could you please tell me if these are Quenya or Sindarin?

1) Evenstar
Ú i vethed nâ i onnad. Si boe ú-dhanna. Ae ú-esteli, esteliach nad.
Estelio han, estelio han, estelio, estelio han, estelio veleth.

2) Aniron
O môr henion i dhû:
Ely siriar, êl síla.
Ai! Aníron Undómiel.
Tiro! Él eria e môr.
I 'lîr en êl luitha 'úren.
Ai! Aníron...

HUGEEEEE thankyou to anyone willing to give it a go!!
Author:  Ligandil [ April 7th, 2012, 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
I am learning Quenya with Helge's course, though my studies were interrupted because of university. I am just a beginner though, and I would like someone would translate this for me in Quenya (not in Tengwar alphabet):

"And now the roads of two friends unite"

I would very much appreciate it, thank you!

*and to starsnocturnelle, that is Sindarin, unfortunately it's beyond my ability to help you further.
Author:  Sírelindë [ April 8th, 2012, 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: TRANSLATIONS -- All need for translations post here!
@Ligandil
Translation of your sentence into Quenya:
"Ar sí i tier meldor atto comyar."
Literally "And now the roads of two friends gather."

Alternatively you could have "Ar sí i tier meldor atto omentar."
This means "And now the roads of two friends meet." which I think is a better translation, meaning-wise. But bear in mind that "omenta" is not a Tolkien-attested word, it's just derived from "omentië", the word for "meeting".
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