That's an interesting point, Larael--I hadn't even though about Faramir's 'decision' like that. Obviously I don't spend enough time in deep thought about LotR.

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Actually, I sort of surprised myself with that post. I wasn't really expecting to write all that about Faramir, but it just... came to me I suppose.

And I've just had another brainwave... what about Elrond? The decision to let his only daughter go must have been a hard one to make. Of course, there is the fact that she'd already betrotherd herself to Aragorn, but still, you have to get the father's blessing, right? It's a choice between whether you ultimately let your child die or live. That'd be a hard enough decision for any parent to make.

I tend to think that Aragorn and Arwen were going to be together based on what she decided, regardless of what Elrond said--I don't see that he had any choice, beyond forcing her. Still, it would've been very hard for him.

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Yeah, I mentioned that since Aragorn and Arwen had already pledged themselves to each other it would have been hard for Elrond to say otherwise, however I still think there was some sort of choice in there if you look hard enough.

Every time I contemplate Faramir I am moved and amazed! So your post did it to me again—that thrill down in my spine and, with your last sentence, moist eyes…

How he made such a decision, I don’t know either….

It had to be something outside himself though because how can a man stand alone, against all odds, in such integrity. Thankfully Faramir had contact with such inspiration in the time he spent with Gandalf. Faramir must have had the same challenge put to him that is laid down often to young boys in tales of knights and dragons. And to the eternal question “What kind of a man do you want to be?”, Faramir’s answer was loud and clear: “ I will risk my life, reputation and family for all that is good, noble, pure and honorable.”

There are examples of men like Faramir in history so it is not impossible. But what a breathtaking inspiration!

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

So glad to see you still here, Sinbearer. You're one of the most intriguing people I've had the pleasure of discussing such brilliant books with.

*le nod* I must say that you do have a way with words. Faramir, who most likely thought that he would have to stand alone much of his life, finds himself deciding between a life separate from a tyrannical father and one where he continues to labour under the yolk of his father's delusions. Sadly, only the death of Denethor really puts his fate in stone.

As I read this, the ancient Isrealite character of Jonathan flooded into my mind. Remember the legendary friendship between David and Jonathan?

I guess I have always been draw to Jonathan. He also had a problem with a father who was unsympathetic with his temperament and character. Jonathan, who was by birth heir to the throne, realized that he was set aside by the divine decree. In spite of this he and his would be rival were the most tender and faithful of friends—he shielded David's life at the peril of his own. He was steadfast at his father's side through the dark days of his father’s declining power and fell at his side at the last.

I have to believe that the name of Jonathan is treasured in the heavens and stands on earth as a witness to the existence and the power of true manhood and unselfish love.”

Truthfully, I feel the same way about Faramir. Tolkien did shape some of his characters after biblical protagonists. (Galadriel being one he has mentioned) I wonder about Faramir? I wonder? Regardless, what a challenge Tolkien lays down for us in the character of Faramir!

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

Sinbearer, I have to say that Larael's comment is really true. You definitely have a way with words. I envy your ability to express yourself so clearly, and even just to see so deeply into each character. It's really, really interesting reading all of your thoughts and opinions on here.

I think that it's definitely possible to draw a lot of parallels between Jonathan and Faramir, though I honestly don't think that they're all that similar in the end (save in character!). Oddly enough, when you mentioned about Jonathan being a witness to he power of true manhood and unselfish love, the person who strikes me as most fitting to the statement 'unselfish love' is Sam. I'm not particularly certain why, considering everything that Faramir and others did, compared to what Sam did, and I'm not even sure how I can compare them, considering that Faramir's love and Sam's love are both revealed in different ways, but I think that Sam fits the character of Jonathan better. Sam's love is that of great loyalty and friendship to another person, the same as Jonathan's. Faramir's, meanwhile, is great loyalty and love for his country and people. I'm not saying that either one is less or more than the other, because can't even think of how they could be comparable, but I don't think Faramir is as much like Jonathan as Sam is.

Still, it's a really, really interesting thought.

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I understand what you are saying Aerandir. My musings on Faramir and Jonathan were born because I was thinking of the simularities between the men and their fathers which fascinate me.

You certainly bring up a great point about the relationship between Sam and Frodo. Tolkien himself says that Sam was the true hero of the story and he was certainly the height of devotion and selfless love. What a breathtaking view of friendship! Few could be better.

(There are some anomolies in the pronouns in this post I can't seem to modify! Weird!)

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

That's true, Sinbearer. Still, in many ways, Faramir was nothing at all like Denethor--it doesn't really seem to be true there.

Frodo and Sam's friendship seems so...perfect, to me. I mean, for a human friend, I don't think that it would be possible to find a friend who's a better friend to you than Sam is to Frodo. (and I'm talking about only friend here)

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With Frodo and Sam's relationship, the "greater love hath no man than this: that a man laid down his life for his friends."
Thankfully Sam did not need to lay down his life, but I believe he would have been willing to do anything for Frodo, even unto death... as we see, so many things he does are for Frodo, totally selfless, and things that could kill him.

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I nearly cried when Sam awoke and began to interrogate Gollum and the book made it clear that his Smeagol side was thoroughly stifled and Sam, as wonderful of a character he is, actually stifled it. What a powerful thought when you apply it to real life! How one quick and rash statement can lead to someone being lost forever. I really was drawn to Gollum throughout that book, and I hoped beyond hopes that he would reform. I think the Return of the King was the most moving book for me.

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It didn't touch me so emotionlly there, but it did make my hopes plummet to see how Sam inadvertently brought back the 'Gollum' part of Sméagol.

I think that Sam definitely would take the 'greater love hath man than this..." line to the maximum extent. I have no doubts that he'd do anything for Frodo.

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When I read your last words there Aerandir something struck me about this subject that hasn't hit me before. As moving a love between friends is (and it really IS!), the real guage of a man's character is how he treats his enemies. Even the most ruthless societies know how to love their family and friends. And this is where Sam fell short. I can't say I blame him, especially when I think of myself and how I have treated people. Bit still....it makes us think.

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

That's an interesting observation, Sinbearer. Sam does fall short in that area. But, I think that in the whole great character area, Faramir actually does beat Sam--Sam loves Frodo, and would do anything--for him.

Faramir, on the other hand, has greater character. He cares for several people greatly, true, but he still treats everyone well. Well, comparatively not, I suppose, but if you recall the line "I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood," I think that sort of shows that he has standards that he doesn't let waver for anything.

Faramir is so cool.

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Faramir IS cool! I would love for him to be my great grandfather! Then I could speak of him as Theoden spoke of his fathers. But then, when it comes right down to it, I even more wish to be like him so that my grandkids can say that about me.

How awesome would that be?! I suppose the question that should challenge all of us is, "What kind of a man (or woman) do you want to be?"
Truthfully, that question haunts me often.

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."