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PostPosted: December 15th, 2005, 6:04 pm 
Gondorian
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Gandalf, along with the other Ainur, was never 'born'; he was called into existence along with the others.

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In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him [...] The Great among those spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda [...] With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but as less degree. These are the Maiar, the People of the Valar and their servants and helpers. Their number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Ilúvatar; for though it is otherwise in Aman, in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in forms visible to Elves and Men [...] Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience. [...] Of Olórin that tale [the Quenta Silmarillion] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in forms as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness. - The Silmarillion


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"It was these records that brought the Grey Pilgrim to us. I first saw him when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then."
"The Grey Pilgrim?" said Frodo. "Had he a name?"
"Mithrandir we called him in elf-fashion," said Faramir, "and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not."
The Two Towers: "The Window on the West," p. 278-79


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PostPosted: December 22nd, 2005, 5:16 pm 
Ent
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i think you can find out in the ependix..

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PostPosted: January 14th, 2006, 1:04 am 
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[quote="Larael Greenleaf"][quote="Naurdil Rochnur"]
Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't gandalf go across the sea, and to the pretty place where people live forever? Or do people die there too?[/quote]

Yes, Gandalf went over the Sea to Valinor, or the Undying Lands. He went with Frodo, Bilbo, Galadriel, Celeborn, Cirdan, and Elrond. No one dies in the Undying Lands, hence the name.[/quote]

Actually, people DO die in the Undying Lands. The name means that the land itself can never "die" of age. It will always look the same as it did at the beginning of time. I remember reading this in ROTK. :D


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2006, 11:15 am 
Gondorian
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Sure people can die there. Even Elves can die there even if they are not killed. Miriel, mother of Feanor did.


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PostPosted: January 14th, 2006, 12:07 pm 
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noldor wrote:
somebody in the tolkein society had a theory that he is mandos in discuise.


Sorry to spoil the theory of those who think that, but Gandalf is not Mandos. He is Olorin the Maia, a separate entity from Mandos.

In his 'list of names' in LotR, he mentions "Olorin I was in my youth" or something like that.

I don't think Maiar or Valar can be destroyed, but they can be diminished -they will never be dead, but they will be harmless.

I forget where, but someone pointed out that Morgoth, Sauron, and the Balrogs seem "stuck" in a certain form, unlike the other Valar and Maiar, who can take whatever appearance they choose. Sauron was able to up until the fall of Numenor, but I thought it was an interesting idea that, when they turn evil, they lack the ability to change shapes. Very interesting theory, really.

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PostPosted: January 18th, 2006, 12:36 pm 
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Arsarniel wrote:
(Freebie tidbit: Both Sauron and Saruman are/were Maia also. 8))


i have only read the hobbit and lotr so forgive me if this is a stupid question but since sauron is maia also does that mean that when frodo killed him by destroying the ring that he just has to find himself another physical form and then can come back?

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PostPosted: January 18th, 2006, 12:44 pm 
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Daughter of Feanor wrote:
Sure people can die there. Even Elves can die there even if they are not killed. Miriel, mother of Feanor did.


do you know how long (aprox) elves can actually live?

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PostPosted: January 18th, 2006, 2:48 pm 
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Rain-maker, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, he destroyed a ton of Sauron's power - enough that now Sauron can never take shape again to do great harm.

Also, the Elves will not die if they're left in peace - when Miriel gave birth to Feanor, it took so much of her spirit, that she went to the gardens of Lorien and chose to 'die'. It's not something that will happen - it's something that they can let happen.

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PostPosted: January 18th, 2006, 2:54 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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thanks you Aerandir

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PostPosted: April 6th, 2006, 9:23 pm 
Gondorian
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Recently I took part in a similar conversation: "Are elves immortal".

Well I searched about it and I found in a letter written by Prof. Tolkien that Elves indeed are ageing and finally die but this "procedure" is very very slow. That is why the Men who were living less than the Elves named them immortal.

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PostPosted: April 18th, 2006, 10:40 pm 
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Aerandir wrote:
Rain-maker, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, he destroyed a ton of Sauron's power - enough that now Sauron can never take shape again to do great harm.


Well, Sauron linked his spirit to the Ring. Thus, the Ring is him and he is the ring. So when the ring was destroyed So was Sauron.

Gandalf was given a "mission", to fight against Sauron at least until he was put out of power. So, if Gandalf ever 'died' he could be (and was) sent back to fufill his mission. He actually says in the movie, "So I was sent back, untill my task is done..."

The same rule applies for elves. It says in the Silmarillion, "[men]...should have a virtue to shape their own lives..."

So we assume that Elves are given a mission. It says in the Sil. "Elves die not till the World dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief; neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of tenthousand centuries; and dying they are gathered into the halls of Mandos, from whence they may in time return.
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PostPosted: April 28th, 2006, 1:26 am 
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EveningStar wrote:
Larael Greenleaf wrote:
Naurdil Rochnur wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't gandalf go across the sea, and to the pretty place where people live forever? Or do people die there too?


Yes, Gandalf went over the Sea to Valinor, or the Undying Lands. He went with Frodo, Bilbo, Galadriel, Celeborn, Cirdan, and Elrond. No one dies in the Undying Lands, hence the name.


Actually, people DO die in the Undying Lands. The name means that the land itself can never "die" of age. It will always look the same as it did at the beginning of time. I remember reading this in ROTK. :D


Really? Poor Frodo! But didn't Sam sail over afterwards? (It says so in his bio on the main A-U site) Oh well... I just assumed that no one died there because it was called the Undying Lands. You learn something new every day!

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PostPosted: May 28th, 2006, 4:05 am 
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I don't think that Gandalf died. He was a Maia and they're immortal so I think he didn't die...

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PostPosted: May 28th, 2006, 3:58 pm 
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I don't think he did either even when he went to the Undying Lands. Some how, I don't remember reading anything about people still being able to die there.

Maybe actual people who were mortal would eventually die, but I still don't see how the Elves could. Maybe someone could give me an excerpt from the book about this. :)


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PostPosted: July 10th, 2006, 6:19 pm 
Gondorian
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Gandalf is an Ainur spirit fom the Halls of Iluvatar, and once sent into Ea he is a Maiar, the lessar order and he is the wisest of that order.

He therefore has no known age, as he does not age.

However when he went to ME with the other Istari he was bound to a phisical form - thus he DID age whilst in ME.

In Tolkien's view death menas the seperation of Fea from hroar - that is bspirit from body - o in essense Gandalf did uttelry perish when he foguht against the Balrog of Morgoth. He was then sent back by Eru to finish his task.

So you can look at it this way:

Olorin is infinate years old
Gandalf (only called this in ME) is roughly 2000.


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PostPosted: July 11th, 2006, 6:31 pm 
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i was going to write what Arsarniel wrote but it has already been written. i have studied it many times and it is correct. :blush:


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