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 Post subject: Middle Earth without the Elves
PostPosted: June 9th, 2006, 4:11 pm 
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For so it seemed to them: Lórien was slipping backward, like a bright ship masted with enchanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they sat helpless upon the margin of the grey and leafless world.


What have the Elves brought to Middle Earth, and how will life on Middle Earth change when they are gone?

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PostPosted: June 9th, 2006, 5:48 pm 
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Interesting question Bellethiel. This is where Tolkien left us to our own imagination.

Middle-earth will loose its magic!
Tolkien created a world with different cultures and races but it is still the race of men we, as readers, can relate to the most. In my opinion this is why elves reprsent the "magical" being super-human, over-earthly immortal creatures. They had the time and the knowledge (and the Rings of Power) to create their own little paradises in Rivendell and Lothlórien.
So when the elves leave the magic goes with them, and I imagine the world becoming an ordinary almost dull place compared to what it was.

Hmm.. no well, actually on a second thought only to the readers Middle-earth will seem like it is missing something... Fourth Age is after all the age of Men and the elves did actually stick to themselves dring the late Third Age. The remaining people of Middle-earth might not think much of their passing...
This becomes so hypothetical... but interesting.. :angel:

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PostPosted: June 9th, 2006, 7:51 pm 
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I think it would eventually lead to something like our Earth without the elves. Tolkien was writing a mythology for England, remember, and he said once that we are probably living in the Sixth or Seventh Age. So without the Elves, the world starts to lose its magic and become more like this one. Which is sad, in a way...I wonder what happened to the Ents? Did they just become more and more treelike?

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PostPosted: June 10th, 2006, 6:13 am 
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I also think that middle-earth would lose its magic. The elves were so important for its history, they are my fav culture actually (or at least one of my fav cultures). I just can't imagine Middle-earth without them. It would probably be similar to our world, much darker and not that beautiful at all.

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PostPosted: June 10th, 2006, 9:29 am 
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Meldawen wrote:
Tolkien was writing a mythology for England, remember, and he said once that we are probably living in the Sixth or Seventh Age.

That's an interesting idea. Without the elves the world would indeed loose it's magic, so it would be a lot like our world (in the past).

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I wonder what happened to the Ents? Did they just become more and more treelike?

Probably.. And what happened to the dwarves?


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PostPosted: June 10th, 2006, 4:28 pm 
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^I think most of them were all killed off Cuilwen.

First of all without Elves I can't see Middle-Earth having the same magic and history. There's something about Middle-Earth that makes it seem like Elves have to belong there, that there is no other place for them. Once all the Elves are gone I think the world will loose some of it's beauty. The Elves were the most beautiful race on earth and they were the wisest beings too. Many things that they knew would be lost to later Middle-Earthians, and so would many of the arts that the Elves had.
Overall, I think M-E would seem very empty without the Elves even if they did make up a small percentage of the people.


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PostPosted: June 10th, 2006, 4:52 pm 
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The way you describe the elves make me think of them as some sort of aliens... like the ones in that Steven Spielberg movie Artificial Intelligence you see in the ending; wise beings of light.

*cough* Anyway, I agree with you all that Middle-earth may become a lot like our world as it is described in litterature and poetry; slightly romanticized. But I still think that ordinary Middle-earth people wouldn't be influenced much by the change as quite few in the late Third Age had very little to do with the elves, and many were even suspicious of them (like Boromir's opinion of Galadriel).

I have no clue as to what happened to the dwarves... perhaps they continued life as they had been doing before and during the WotR since they didn't take much part in the War anyway.

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PostPosted: June 10th, 2006, 8:06 pm 
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I like what someone said about it being like our mythology. *cough* I have a little nerdy confession to make: sometimes I pretend like Tolkien's books really are our own ancient history, and we are decendants of the men of middle earth (and I probably have some dwarf blood in me :P) *cough* anyways... I agree, I think Middle Earth would eventually become much like today's world... no magic, and the emergence of industry. Kind of sad :(

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PostPosted: June 11th, 2006, 10:38 pm 
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I see it like this - Elves embody intelligence, wisdom, art, physical beauty, mental calm. And that is what they brought to Middle-Earth, for from the start they were made greater in mind (and body) than men since the start, not too mention the Noldor's exposure to Aman(and the Light of the Trees of Valinor). But, too me, Middle Earth is the mortal plane, and Elves, immortal beings, weren't meant for it. Compared to men, they are angels. It's not that they weren't meant to come in contact with men, that they were, rather not for long. I see Elves as the teachers of men, much like the Valar were for the Elves, and soon enough men have no use for Elven wisdom, extracting enough to the point were man can continue on his own as a free-willed, sentient being. Though I believe there is a lapse, a 'Dark Age' of Middle-Earth, when the Elves leave its shores. Meaning that a great amount of art, and knowledge is lost forever, and men founder on a support that has just been reduced to what man has cultivated alongside Elves. And after that Dark Age, life goes on to our present age, the 6th or 7th according to Tolkien!

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PostPosted: June 13th, 2006, 12:20 am 
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i would be very sad if the elves did not exist. they are kool, and they are so smart and graceful.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: June 13th, 2006, 7:17 pm 
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Erethror wrote:
But, too me, Middle Earth is the mortal plane, and Elves, immortal beings, weren't meant for it.


That's what I think as well. With the elves, all the magic left Middle-earth and it became basically like our own world. Only, I think there would still be some magic left in Middle-earth.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: June 14th, 2006, 12:29 pm 
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To elaborate slightly on a previous point we are now meant to be in the seventh age - the sixth having ended with the second world war.

For those of you who know What I am talking about the Dagor Dagorath is yet to come according to Tolkien.


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PostPosted: June 14th, 2006, 12:47 pm 
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Although I do not agree fully on everything you said Erethror, I do like the idea of Elves bing the teachers of Men like the Valar were to the Elves.
Also Tolkien gives clues going in that direction, and that would be the reason why the Elves leave Middle-earth at the time they do. Otherwise he could have them stay there living in peaceful unison with the mortal people forever.
But I think it might be a point that the elves are too superior to be staying. The fact that they live such long lives is reason enough to how they would tip the balance towards a Rule of Elves in ME, along with their great knowledge and wisdom.

To return to the issue about ME being our world.
For some reason i don't support the idea and I can't say why... it just doesn't feel right...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: June 15th, 2006, 1:42 pm 
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To return to the issue about ME being our world.
For some reason i don't support the idea and I can't say why... it just doesn't feel right...

Hm... I think I know what you mean, but I can't really explain it. At first, I liked the idea, but... yeah, it just doesn't feel right.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: June 16th, 2006, 4:41 am 
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Geographically there is no way Ea could be our present day world becuase its MUCH small. I would say roughly the size of our Moon.
er
To be roughly accurate I hope, I beleive Arda is about 8000 miles in width though I need to check on that.

But however you could class Arda as our world from the fall of Numenor onwards, when Valinor was removed from the world and the lands east of middle-earth were cast back to form 'New lands'. But there is still the problem of the size of Arda.


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PostPosted: June 16th, 2006, 9:25 am 
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Lord of all wrote:
Geographically there is no way Ea could be our present day world becuase its MUCH small. I would say roughly the size of our Moon.
er
To be roughly accurate I hope, I beleive Arda is about 8000 miles in width though I need to check on that.

But however you could class Arda as our world from the fall of Numenor onwards, when Valinor was removed from the world and the lands east of middle-earth were cast back to form 'New lands'. But there is still the problem of the size of Arda.


I'm not sure of this matter since I'm not a supporter of the idea of "Our world being Middle-earth" and neither have I read anything where Tolkien should suggest this idea.
My impression though, and feel free to correct me, is that our world could be ME in the 6th or 7th age on a more metaphorical level, not necessarily strictly geographically. So the history presented in Tolkien's works is like the mythology - or our pre-history...

But as I already mentioned I don't support that idea- It might be I have too little knowledge about the arguments for, but I don't see people of today being descendants of Gondorians, Hobbits... and Orcs.. and elves??

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