But you see people today being descendants of Vikings, Romans, Normans, Saxons, Celts?
Hobbits are a strain of Men that do not evolve into us in Tolkien's mind. all the Elves are said to have passed west with the defeat of Sauron in the Third age, Dwaves are in the mountains, never bothering to come out and Orcs are like Dwarves which also stay in tunnesl undergound.

Really only men of Bree, Rohan, Gondor and any scattered regions are meant to be us, which isn't that hard to believe.

I don't think ME is like our world, there should be places which would still have a mark that the elves have lived there once. In FotR, Aragorn explains that "the trees and the stoned never forget the Elves".

For the Elves leaving ME, I think it's sad and it's true much of their knowledge and art will be gone forever, but I think it's best, even for ME itself. The elves are, as one of you said, like angels to men and probably men will get jealous and may even cause another war. This would take a long time since Aragorn as King has a lot of influence and will teach his people about the Elves, but the Elves know it WILL happen someday. I think that's why they leave... And because the Undying Lands are their orignal homes.

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You make it sound as though Elves are 'better' than men. This is not so, they possess greater Power but in the end it is elves and the Ainur that will envy men as they are not wholly bound to the world when they perish. Elves however reincarnate as another Elf and never leave the world utterly.

Certainly it is a fascinating subject as to what Tolkien intended with his myth. Regardless, I think ME is like our world in a very important way. That is in the way it resonates through it’s characterizations with the reality and truth of our world and our lives. It has the same struggles, joys, sorrows and other issues that our world has. And certainly the same solutions are valuable to contemplate here in our world.

Vikingmaiden said it so well in one thread, “…there are main messages that have parallels to our own lives. That is rather the way I view anything by Tolkien or Lewis. It is a part of a their mythological idea, that all stories mirror what Lewis and Tolkien called "The One True Myth".

As for the elves—just by virtue of their impressive life-span elves brought a wisdom and understanding that, because of men’s short lives, they could never accumulate with clarity. There certainly is a comfort in having such wonderful creatures around.

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

Of course we could be descended from men of Bree, etc, because they are human. But that would mean that Middle-Earth would have had to exist at one time and I do not think that is possible.

Tolkien wrote the LotR Trilogy solely to be read as a book, not to be taken literally. There is no real Arda except in our imaginations.

I agree. Of course LotR is just a great story written out of Tokiens immagination and understanding of ancient myth and legend.

So I guess the question is....how do we really know where myth and legend end and "reality" begins? How much truth is there in legend and how much myth is there in what we believe is "truth"?

I know a lot of us are asking that question...

(Certainly many things that only exist in immagination are just as dear and real to us as anything else.)

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

The elves do not die, exept when they get killed, they are immortal. Only a few Elves chose for mortality, Tinuviel and Arwen for example. They have died, but the other Elves live on forever. And I do not claim "Elves are better than..." no race is better than another, but the Elves are immortal and the humans may see them like gods because of that.

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"Hello" is the beginning of "Good-bye"

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Thanks for explaining that Calathiel. I knew they were immortal but my boys were asking me if they could be killed and I didn't know. I guess it makes sense though.

I read in one place that eventually as elves age, their immortal spirits overwhelm their physical bodies, rendering them bodiless but before this occurs, many elves make their way to the port of the Grey Havens and sail to the realm of Valinor.

Has anyone read enough Tolkien to confirm this?

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"If you do not find a way, no one will."

Yes, but some elves have been known to have died from grief after chosing mortality...few die from grief...well it's thought as.

This is making me think of the Last Alliance battles. What if we had no aid from Elrond and his elves? WOAH! Well, I'm pretty sure if there were no elves we wouldn't even get to that point. Then what would the first dark lord do without his orcs? I suppose he could mutate other things....I basically just agree that we would lose all the magic without the elves. There are essential. I guess I just have really odd questions that popped up in my brain.

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Capt. Jack: Shoot him and cut out his tongue! Then shoot his tongue!..and trim that scraggly beard.

yAAAy! The <a href="http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2007/tc20071218_443372.htm">Hobbit movie</a> is back on!!! Movie buffs get excited!

Elves are not nessersarily Orcs.

There are a variety of possible origins from the Orcs including them being Twisted Elves, men, created from slime and filth, and even lessar Maiar.

And refering to sinbearers post, I have not heard that before. An Elf can be slain by another, or die from grief, otherwise they are basically immortal, thogh they may not live forever in its true sense, whether they live in Valinor or not.

arda would become a sad place with just ugly ordinary humans about.if course if there never had been elves then all of middle earth would belong to melkor as there would be no elven kings to oppose him.

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Those are really good questions!
In response I say that we don't really know. It's mostly instinct, we know what is believable and what isn't. If you see something you are most likely to believe it, but if you don't you are more keen to doubt it. We've never actually seen an Elf walking around on Earth so how would we know if they existed or not? According to our history and what others who came before us witnessed we know that these things are not really real.
It's also the way you look at it. We're not perfect human beings and we do tend to get things mixed up, so how can everything we say be truth, even if we did not intend to lie about it or even if we didn't realise it.

So, many questions and big ideas...

"Elves represent the beauty in the world" and "Without the elves there is no no magic in Middle-earth".
These statements are mentioned repeatedly throughout this thread and it made me wonder.. what is particularly magical about the elves... why should the world be more beautiful through them?
I realize it actually may be another topic and I may start a new thread if we get a good debate going.

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To the human mind Elves are the perfect beings and for us perfect is a beautiful thing. Of course being perfect wouldn't make the whole world beautiful and perfect too if there were others there deemed "imperfect". It depends on how you define beauty. Beauty comes in all different shapes and forms, but perfection is one of the most common.

So, if the Elves left a certain amount of beauty would also. Not all of it though, seeing as there are other things in the world that can still be deemed beautiful.

Okay... I have no idea where I'm going with this so I'll just stop rambling...

I think that when the Elves left, that little bit of beauty, tranquility and peacefulness that they had was left in the most isolated of places, left to mingle in nature. Those places remain untouched by human development and civilisation.

But once humans find those few places left in the world, all the magic of the Elves will dwindle to naught, because the greedy desires of men. These human desires cannot be helped, yet they pollute the "perfection" of the elves.

That's as far as my theory has gotten so far.

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ok, in my opinion, the elves brought the actual life to middle earth, the gace life to the ents, and explored all middle earth when it was still young....to me they were the part of middle earth that people would trun to, because of their strenght, and beauty, they showed all that not all evil and grim, they gave beauty and pecae the earth at times of war....they gave shelter to those in need and tought their arts to men willing to learn, very bautiful and peaceful creatures they were....

when they leave....middle earth will have lost, what i consider their most beautiful folk, there will be no more beautiful singing...no more stories of the times of old, no more lembas, man middle earth will be dol without the elves, to know that they are gone justmakes it all, sad....i love the elves...middle eart will never be the same...