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 Post subject: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: December 3rd, 2015, 1:40 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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Just a weird thought I have been having... What would it have been like if Liv Tyler played Tauriel and Evangaline Lilly played Arwen?

Any thoughts?

As weird as it may sound I honestly think I would have liked both characters better if the acctresses were switched around.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: December 3rd, 2015, 7:42 pm 
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ooooh ..... you've opened up a can of worms with me! I didn't like any of the Elves in the films. Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond all looked too old (remember Elves are immune from illness and aging, and certainly wouldn't be plagued with receding hairlines) and, sorry, but Liv Tyler looks a bit too much like her father for my taste. As for the rest of the Elves of Rivendell, well, the less said the better.

I would have preferred somebody like Anne Hathaway as Arwen, and people significantly younger for Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond.

So as to whether or not Evangeline Lilly and Liv Tyler should have swapped characters, I could care less.

One of the things that fascinates me about Elves is that, once their children become adults, the parents don't look any older than the children, nor would grandparents look noticeably older than their grandchildren.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: December 6th, 2015, 2:21 pm 
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Yeah, I remember having a similar conversation woth my siblings when we watched it about how Elrond shouldn't look any older than Arwen. I agree... They should all look the same age unless they are young. But the. What is the age elves mature at? The same as humans or sofferent?


I was pleased with Elrond's actor other than his age. His looks fot. Other than that, however, I agree that the rest could have been cast better. (Well, Haldir fot well and other minor elves with no name)

Honestly, however, I think The actress who ayed Tauriel would have been better as Arwen and vice verse.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: December 6th, 2015, 7:26 pm 
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Oh my gosh... That is too weird to think about.


I think if they had been that way from the begining I totally would have loved them that way. But I love them the way they are.

It is just too weird thinking of that because they are who they are now in my mind.

I think their characters were cast good.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: December 6th, 2015, 7:53 pm 
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Lol well... Didn't mean to disturb your preception. :p.

I just tend to think of odd things I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: December 6th, 2015, 8:14 pm 
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Ha ha. Jax.

I just never thought of it that way before. It is a unique topic, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: December 6th, 2015, 10:24 pm 
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*nods* yeah, I thought it was an interesting thought. I was just curious what others thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: January 1st, 2016, 8:36 pm 
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It's a bit of a weird topic Jax, what's your reasoning for thinking they'd be better swapped?

I ask, because I don't agree that Liv would have been a better Tauriel, and Evie a better Arwen at all. For me, it's more based on the type of actresses they are than anything else. Liv mainly plays supportive, love interest type roles, whilst Evie is primarily a bad-ass action girl. I don't for a minute dispute that they are both talented and versatile and capable of playing the other part, but I don't think Liv could have sold the savageness and grittiness of Tauriel, and Evie couldn't do justice to the tragic love story in the same way.

Quote:

ooooh ..... you've opened up a can of worms with me! I didn't like any of the Elves in the films. Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond all looked too old (remember Elves are immune from illness and aging, and certainly wouldn't be plagued with receding hairlines) and, sorry, but Liv Tyler looks a bit too much like her father for my taste. As for the rest of the Elves of Rivendell, well, the less said the better.

I would have preferred somebody like Anne Hathaway as Arwen, and people significantly younger for Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond.

So as to whether or not Evangeline Lilly and Liv Tyler should have swapped characters, I could care less.

One of the things that fascinates me about Elves is that, once their children become adults, the parents don't look any older than the children, nor would grandparents look noticeably older than their grandchildren.


The filmmakers have consistently said that the elves are the hardest characters to cast because whilst they should appear fairly young, they also have to possess an otherworldliness and wisdom of a much older character. They described Lee Pace as an old soul in a young man's body. Plus, audiences would find it very hard to truly believe an actor or actress in who appears in their twenties possessing the wisdom of a character who has lived for thousands of years.

Ageing in humans tends to start around the mid-30s, which was roughly the age Cate Blanchett & Marton Csokas during LotR, and Lee Pace for the Hobbit. Liv & Orlando, playing the younger elves were both in their early twenties during LotR too.

Finally, Tolkien's elves *do* age, but in a somewhat different way to going grey & getting wrinkles etc. As an aside, the receding hairline was an intentional move by the design team to give the male elves an other-worldly look with a high forehead, Orlando's infamous mohwak came about as a result of having his hairline lifted for Legolas' wig. But physically, more mature elves could grow beards, Cirdan is a notable example. Elves seem to age through weariness with the world, which manifests in their appearance. Those who've suffered great hardship and stress, as Galadriel, Celeborn & Elrond would have done during the First Age would appear visibly older than their children.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: January 2nd, 2016, 5:06 pm 
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I see what you are saying Lembes. I actually wasn't basing my thoughts in any of that. I really don't know anything about them in other movies or what rolles they play. I was thinking kust along the lines of looks.

I donmt know why I just always imagined Arwen (prior to watching the movies) to look different and Tauriel, in retrospect Inthink would look good as Arwen (looks wise)


I honestly don't know what made me think of it... Just poped into my head one day.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: January 4th, 2016, 11:56 am 
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While I agree that torment, great labour and thraldom can make an Elf appear older, I'm not sure this is necessarily so for general hardship or arguable stress. When Galadriel and Celeborn are introduced (late in the Third Age of course) the text relates "but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes;..." Elrond's face was "ageless, neither old nor young..." Glorfindel's face was fair and young. Arwen "was young and yet not so"

To my mind Tolkien has found a poetic way to describe the Half-elven Elrond and Arwen, and even with Galadriel and Celeborn he tries to find some way to add a sense of great age in folk who otherwise have no sign of age upon them. What does neither old nor young look like? Some might say "middle-age" but I think Tolkien is going for something beyond (what I would call) a somewhat "mundane" interpretation, and that somehow faces that are not old can still have an "air" of ancientry.

We can't really easily imagine it. We've never seen faces, nor eyes, that are young but have lived thousands of years.

Of course, the fly in my ointment has always been Cirdan. Technically the text describes that Cirdan "was" old, not that he looked old, but I've always had to agree that the description at least implies that he looked old. Then again silver hair and beards of any notable length arguably give one a measure of age (to the eye)... but if Cirdan shaved would he necessarily look old to our eyes?

In Cirdan's case I think Tolkien had an even tougher job: I think he wanted the reader to meet an Elf who seemed older than any other Elf in the story. How to do that? Give him a beard and suggest age without saying outright that he looked old, beneath the arguable trappings of age anyway.

Here it's interesting because Cirdan's eyes are seemingly used to suggest "youth" in a sense, as compared to his general "grey" look: Cirdan was old and grey save his eyes were keen as stars.

It's my belief (so far, and despite Cirdan), based on texts in Morgoth's Ring, that Elves do not physically age after reaching maturity, but age in other ways, and ultimately (in Middle-earth) will fade in the body, meaning they slowly become invisible to Men's eyes, and no longer need food and drink to survive. It seems to be the case that in earlier texts like The Book of Lost Tales, Tolkien's Elves could physically age, or at least look different if, say, held in thraldom for many years. Still, I'm not sure Tolkien held to this is his later years, outside of torment and labour (illustrated by Gwindor).

In any case I can only give my opinion here. Added to this is that I don't see a "need" for such a stage in the lifespan of Elves. Of course that's very subjective, but to my mind, in Middle-earth the Lingerers will ultimately fade, their bodies grow tenuous and invisible, as the spirit consumes the body. Elves age in other ways (become weary of things and so on), but I don't see what a stage of physical old age brings to the table...

... physical age and sickness would seem to be the lot of those who die and leave the World. The Elves are not allowed to leave it until the World itself ends, and (generally speaking) are reincarnated if slain.


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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: January 4th, 2016, 1:18 pm 
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Perhaps gray/silver was hisboriginal hair color at birth. That is possible, no?

I agree, though. I have always understood that as far as physical looks elves don't age.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: January 4th, 2016, 5:41 pm 
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Cirdan is said to have had silver hair in the text Quendi and Eldar: "Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan)." JRRT, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

That said, the reader of The Lord of the Rings would not know this, nor does Tolkien use silver as he had with Celeborn: "silver, long and bright". Cirdan is: "Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said 'All is now ready.'"

The use of "grey and old", along with a long beard (a beard is not seen on any other Elf in the story of The Lord of the Rings, although in Tolkien's wider history Cirdan is not alone in this) still suggests, at least, that Cirdan looked old, I have to admit.

Perhaps Tolkien's Elves do age physically, but it seems a major point to leave out in the section in Morgoth's Ring where Tolkien describes, in some measure, how the Elves age. Plus, to my mind we would need a rather notable disparity in the number of years between Cirdan and Celeborn, for example, but Celeborn could be very old himself, and even Galadriel was born in Aman before the return of the Noldor.

In other words, Galadriel and Celeborn are thousands of years old already, with no sign of age (except for their eyes), and for myself I'm not sure why thousands more would matter, again unless we are talking a notable disparity here. I've never tried to add up how old Cirdan might be compared to Galadriel (using 9.58 Sun Years to 1 Valian Year) but even if I did I don't know when Celeborn was born in any case (I don't know when Cirdan was born exactly, but we can place him very early in the chronology at least).

Tolkien does seem to have altered the number from 9.58 to 144, which would provide a lot more time when dealing in Valian Years, but I'm not wholly sure if we are supposed to use the former chronology (just switching the number), or not... some things would seemingly take a very, very long time if we leave the chronology as it is... that is, when it was written with the smaller number in mind.

Plus I still wouldn't know when Celeborn was born...

... and for me, well math isn't my best subject :)


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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: January 4th, 2016, 8:31 pm 
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Lol I hear ya there. Math was never my thing. It makes sense, though, the way you putnit. If disparity and a hrs life would cause them to show their age in a physical manner. But yes, that passage does make it sound like he is old looking. A beard on an elf, for sure, is quite interesting. I disnmt realize they grew facial hair.

I giess it could be the fact that there is always an exception to the rule. Most people don't get 7-8 foot tall but every now and then a few do. *shrugs*

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: January 6th, 2016, 2:02 pm 
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I did a quick check of The Annals of Aman here. All we really know is that Cirdan was making small boats upon the Great March (1105), which allows that he could even be older... but as he cannot be older than the Awakening of all Elves, being generous I'll use that date, 1050.

Galadriel was born in 1362, so that's 312 Valian Years after all Elves awoke. Instead of 9.58 I'll use 10, which is again adding time but makes the math easier, making Cirdan -- at the very most and then some -- about 3,000 years older than Galadriel.

That's not enough for me to think Galadriel has no sign of age while Cirdan looked old and grey. Galadriel could wield Nenya for the Third Age, yes, but Cirdan could wield Narya for around 1,000 years in the Third Age before Gandalf arrived (I realize there is a posthumously published text that states Cirdan's Ring was idle, but this was written before Appendix B was published, which generally notes that the Three were in use in the Third Age, arguably before the coming of evil to Greenwood, and the arrival of the Istari).

In any case, even with the Rings involved, it's not a significant enough disparity for my blood.

That said, keep the same chronology and plug in 144 instead of 9.58... well now we're talking!

But as I say above, are we supposed to do this? The chronology was written with the lower number in mind, and while Tolkien wanted to expand these years to allow for certain things, I'm not sure he thought about how it would affect certain details, especially those years that concern the Rebellion of the Noldor...

... keeping in mind, that what could happen in but 1 Valian Year would now cover 144 years of actual time (as we count Sun Years). Of course one needs the dates to actually work out the time, but the bottom line is, with respect to the chronology that we know Tolkien was certainly thinking in terms of 9.58 Sun Years (1 Valian Year), Cirdan was "only" around 3,000 years older than Galadriel.

A long time to you and me yes, but Galadriel herself was over 8,000 years old when she departed Middle-earth.

Unless my math is way off :-D

A person called Maiarian Man once did these calculations:

Quote:
"... though Galadriel was indeed born in 1362 Years of the Trees (which would be 4862 overall Valian years, the Years of the Trees having started in 3500). That leaves her with 138 Valian years before the First Age. But a Valian year is equivelent to about 9.582 regular years, so:

(138 x 9.582) + 583 + 3441 +3021 = 8367

So Galadriel is about 8367 years old at the end of the Third Age (using the "Annals of Aman" in Morgoth’s Ring).


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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: January 6th, 2016, 8:54 pm 
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Very interesting indeed!

It honestly doesn't make sense that an immortal would show signs of physical age. Because physical aging is a sign of mortality. So Inthinknit would make more sense as you say that it had something to do with what he had been through in his life.

That is some interesting figuring though, as I say. Certainly he was old and well "seasoned" and age regadless that passage of time leaves ample opportunity for him to endure harsh life experiences for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Arwen--Tauriel switch??
PostPosted: March 5th, 2016, 10:30 pm 
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Jax Nova wrote:
What would it have been like if Liv Tyler played Tauriel and Evangaline Lilly played Arwen?

Any thoughts?


Hmm..... I think there would have been many many batter choices of actresses to play Arwen over Liv.

Evangeline would have been 19-20 years old when the filming of LOTR got under way, so she would have portrayed a young and beautiful elf maiden for sure!

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