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PostPosted: January 4th, 2007, 1:17 pm 
Vala
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Thanks for explaining what you meant, noldor--it helped a lot.

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PostPosted: January 5th, 2007, 12:54 pm 
Ent
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Are they clever creatures in the sense that they have their own will's and minds of their own or is it purley determined in their instincts as to the dark lord that they serve evil pruposes only?

If so what does the serving of evil do for them?

In other words, what is it that Wargs get out of obeying the orcs?

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PostPosted: January 5th, 2007, 1:15 pm 
Vala
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The Wargs have their own will, and control over their own minds. They don't obey the Orcs unless they are told that the Orcs are above them by someone who Sauron puts above them.

They serve the Dark Lord, and if he wants him to obey Orcs, they will, if only out of fear. If he doesn't say that they have to obey the Orcs, than the Orcs and Wargs would basically be on equal terms.

I don't think that serving Evil gains them much except satiating their evil natures. They serve Sauron out of fear, as all of his servants (except the Nazgul) do.

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PostPosted: January 8th, 2007, 10:53 am 
Ent
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so they were bred soley for the purposes of evil?

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PostPosted: January 8th, 2007, 11:25 am 
Vala
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I don't know of Sauron/Morgoth bred them or if they just mutated normal wolves (that's probably what happened), but either way, they were formed out of evil, and for the purpose and doing of evil.

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PostPosted: January 8th, 2007, 1:45 pm 
Gondorian
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It is not stated whether Wargs were a corruption of Wolves as Trolls were of Ents. Therefore I think it best to assume that the Wargs were a bad breed of Wolf created by the Discord of Melkor which was woven into Ea.


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PostPosted: January 9th, 2007, 7:28 am 
Vala
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But neither Morgoth nor Sauron had the power to create (that was mentioned in The Silmarillion), only to corrupt and make mockery of. Since Morgoth couldn't make the Wargs, he obviously had to corrupt something else, and the obvious choice would be wolves.

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PostPosted: January 9th, 2007, 10:20 am 
Gondorian
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You misunderstand me.

As we know the Music of the Ainur fasioned the history of the World, whilst the Flame Imperishable allowed it to be. For example Ulmo made Water come into Ea becuase he made it in his Music.
Thus when Melkor's discord came it is likely that he introduced some less than wholesome additives into the world through his Music.
I personally think that creatures like the Watcher, Ungoliant and perhaps Wargs were introduced into the world in this manner, whilst creatures like Tom Bombadil were created by the Music that rebeled against Melkor's Discord.

We know for instance that Elves were created by Eru's second theme laid down to counter-Melkor's discord, whilst Men came in the Third and last theme that Eru introduced.


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PostPosted: January 9th, 2007, 2:02 pm 
Ent
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wow! I had no idea that there was so much to it.

I agree with the fact that Sauron/Morgoth did not have the Power to create and therefore as stated the obvious choice would be wolves. I'm convinced that they are formed from corrupted wolves...where else could they have been bred and by whom if not by Sauron or Morgoth? Who else would breed rather than corrupt for evil purposes or perhaps selfish purposes?

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PostPosted: January 9th, 2007, 6:49 pm 
Gondorian
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See my post above.


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PostPosted: January 10th, 2007, 5:07 am 
Vala
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But Ulmo was singing/playing the part that Iluvatar gave him, so he did not create water, it was created by Iluvatar, and Ulmo was just the vessel for its creation.

Also, Ungoliant was a corrupt Ainur too, not created by Morgoth.

Maybe you're right about the Wargs being sung into being during the Ainulindale, but I find it much more likely that Morgoth merely corrupted wolves, or another possibility is that werewolves (who were normal wolves with spirits/corrupt Maia in them) bred with normal wolves to create Wargs, who would be in between the two.

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PostPosted: January 10th, 2007, 7:36 am 
Gondorian
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I am afraid the origin of Ungoliant is Unknown. All it says is she desceneded from the Darkness that lies about Ea and was corrupted into Melkor's service. Although the likely outcome is that she was a Maiar (doubtful Valar), it is certainly not conclusive.

Eru gave all the Ainur a theme to sing to but each Ainur added his own devices and thoughts to there own Music to create things extra. As long as there music and additions did not clash with Eru's Music he allowed them to be.


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PostPosted: January 10th, 2007, 2:12 pm 
Vala
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Hmm. Let me go off and read up in my copy of The Silmarillion again, and then I'll come back with a response to your above post.

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PostPosted: January 10th, 2007, 2:13 pm 
Ent
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i looked at your post above Lord of All and i was still unable to discover the answer to who would create Wargs purley for selfish/evil purposes. I don't understand why they would choose to breed rather than corrupt.

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PostPosted: January 10th, 2007, 3:05 pm 
Vala
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Morgoth would try to breed them, Frodos-Guide.

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PostPosted: January 11th, 2007, 2:08 pm 
Ent
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why go the long way around when it would be easier for him to corrupt them? In what way were they able to assist him?

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