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Post subject: sound familiar? Posted: February 2nd, 2007, 9:44 pm |
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Joined: 19 September 2006 Posts: 2126 Location: england
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this is from the the wanderer (an old english poem):
where has the horse gone? where is the rider? where is the giver of gold? where are the seats of the feast? where are the joys of the hall? o the bright cup! o the brave warrior! o the glory of princes! how the time passed away, slipped into nightfall as if it had never been
and this (as you should know) is from the two towers:
where now the horse and the rider? where is the horn that was blowing? where is the helm and the hauberk and the bright hair flowing? where is the hand on the harpstring and the red fire glowing? where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? they have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow; the days have gone down in the west behind the hills into the shadow. who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning, or behold the flowing years from the sun returning?
i don't want to start another 'did tolkien steal?' debate, but i do think it's interesting to see where he got his inspiration from (i know tolkien knew the wanderer because he was teaching it at my uni 80 years ago). interestingly enough, the poem also refers to "middle-earth".
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Post subject: Posted: February 3rd, 2007, 7:32 am |
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Joined: 02 January 2006 Posts: 5728 Location: Mithlond Country:
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That's really interesting. I hadn't known that that poem 'borrowed' elements from an Old English poem.
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Post subject: Posted: February 3rd, 2007, 11:37 am |
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Joined: 18 December 2006 Posts: 50
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this proves that Tolkien had a very big knowlegde of the ancient poems
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Post subject: Posted: February 3rd, 2007, 2:47 pm |
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Joined: 02 January 2006 Posts: 5728 Location: Mithlond Country:
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Well, he was a scholar, after all. It's no big surprise for someone in his position to be familiar with poems and stories from past times, especially considering that Tolkien himself translated several from Old English, too.
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Post subject: Posted: February 3rd, 2007, 3:03 pm |
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Joined: 18 December 2006 Posts: 50
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He was a very cultured person
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Post subject: Posted: February 3rd, 2007, 3:06 pm |
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Joined: 19 September 2006 Posts: 2126 Location: england
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i'm studying medieval literature at leeds university at the moment (that's how i came across the wanderer) and he taught all of the texts on the module while he was teaching at leeds. so yeah, he'd have known the entire corpus of anglo-saxon poetry.
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Post subject: Posted: February 3rd, 2007, 3:53 pm |
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Joined: 18 December 2006 Posts: 50
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Wow I'd really like studing medieval literature...
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Post subject: Posted: February 3rd, 2007, 9:27 pm |
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Joined: 19 September 2006 Posts: 2126 Location: england
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i'm really enjoying it so far. we do beowulf on tuesday and i can't wait - i've loved that poem since i was seven.
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Last edited by ethelfleda on February 5th, 2007, 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Posted: February 4th, 2007, 11:48 am |
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Joined: 02 January 2006 Posts: 5728 Location: Mithlond Country:
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You read it when you were seven? I read a non-poetical version of it in abridged form around that time, but I didn't actually read the unabridged poem until last year or the year before. Either way, I loved it.
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Post subject: Re: sound familiar? Posted: February 4th, 2007, 6:54 pm |
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Joined: 07 October 2006 Posts: 2474 Location: From the north I have come, need has driven me and I have passed the doors to the path of the M6
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eowyn of ithilien wrote: this is from the the wanderer (an old english poem):
where has the horse gone? where is the rider? where is the giver of gold? where are the seats of the feast? where are the joys of the hall? o the bright cup! o the brave warrior! o the glory of princes! how the time passed away, slipped into nightfall as if it had never been
and this (as you should know) is from the two towers:
where now the horse and the rider? where is the horn that was blowing? where is the helm and the hauberk and the bright hair flowing? where is the hand on the harpstring and the red fire glowing? where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? they have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow; the days have gone down in the west behind the hills into the shadow. who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning, or behold the flowing years from the sun returning?
i don't want to start another 'did tolkien steal?' debate, but i do think it's interesting to see where he got his inspiration from (i know tolkien knew the wanderer because he was teaching it at my uni 80 years ago). interestingly enough, the poem also refers to "middle-earth".
well Tolkien was a prfessor of english at a uni for awhile so...lol
I must say that did strike me as old english. Also if u mena th eold english concept of middle earth as in Asgard then I would sya thats that is historically accurate. BUt yes , good food for thought there Eowyn thanx. Oh BTW all, Its EONWEsbest mate, not EOWYNS bestmate. Thanx
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Post subject: Posted: February 5th, 2007, 5:04 am |
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Joined: 19 September 2006 Posts: 2126 Location: england
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Aerandir wrote: You read it when you were seven? I read a non-poetical version of it in abridged form around that time, but I didn't actually read the unabridged poem until last year or the year before. Either way, I loved it.
no, i didn't read it when i was seven - when i said i'd loved the poem since i was seven i was more referring to the story. i was kind of the same as you - one of my teachers read us a much abridged and simplified version when i was seven, but i didn't read the full poem until 2002 (when i was 14).
i remember i first fell in love with it because the seven year old me found it hysterically funny that grendel was meant to be a big scary monster but he still lived at home with his mum. i still find that funny, but now i can appreciate the poem for slightly more literary reasons.
i have a lecture on beowulf tomorrow, and the geek in me is very exited.
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Post subject: Posted: February 5th, 2007, 9:21 am |
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Joined: 02 January 2006 Posts: 5728 Location: Mithlond Country:
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As in, you're giving a lecture on Beowulf, or you're attending a lecture on Beowulf?
I fell in love with the story because (being a guy) I thought that Beowulf as a hero was awesome, and the fact that he battled Grendel alone when nobody else had dared to do it. It was his heroism that made me love the story.
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Post subject: Posted: February 5th, 2007, 10:35 am |
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Joined: 19 September 2006 Posts: 2126 Location: england
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as in i'm attending a lecture on beowulf - like i said in an earlier post, i'm studying medieval literature at university at the moment. next year i can do a whole module on beowulf, and as part of that i'd learn old english. i seriously can't wait - that module's most of the reason i came to uni to study english at all.
i have actually already written an essay on beowulf this year - i took anglo-saxon culture last semester, and for my second assignment i wrote about how beowulf would have been received by a late anglo-saxon female audience.
as you may be able to guess, medieval literature is the area i want to specialise in.
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Post subject: Posted: February 5th, 2007, 1:27 pm |
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Joined: 02 January 2006 Posts: 5728 Location: Mithlond Country:
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Lol. I would love to take a class like that. I'm just stuck with normal, boring English class right now, though.
That second assignment sounds interesting--what was the basic idea that you came up with for it?
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Post subject: Posted: February 6th, 2007, 7:53 pm |
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Joined: 19 September 2006 Posts: 2126 Location: england
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the essay was 2500 words long, so it's kind of hard to paraphrase quickly, but the basic arguments were:
1) in some respects, the woman of anglo-saxon england would see the women of beowulf as reflections of their own situation, thus leading them to see that they had fixed traditional roles to play
2) in other respects, the woman of anglo-saxon england would see that they had a lot more freedom and power than the women of beowulf, suggesting some progression in society between the 5th/6th century world of the poem and the 11th century world they were living in
3) wealtheow would act as a role model for the perfect noble woman - peace weaver and hostess
4) hildeburh would act as a reminder of the danger and personal tragedy that come as a result of failure to fulfil this role (her marriage failed to unite the two tribes and bring peace, and consequently she lost ther brother, son and husband)
5) grendel's mother and thryth act as warnings against rebelling against the feminine ideal - both overstep the boundary and both are ultimately tamed by men (grendel's mother through death and thryth through marriage)
i think that was basically it, but i concluded by saying that every woman would read it as an individual, and it is impossible to give a single universal interpretation.
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Post subject: Posted: February 7th, 2007, 5:17 am |
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Joined: 02 January 2006 Posts: 5728 Location: Mithlond Country:
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It sounds really interesting. And hard to come up with. I'm not looking forward to University.
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