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Canon Conundrum: The Grima/Eowyn Relationship
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18946		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Larael [ July 27th, 2008, 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Canon Conundrum: The Grima/Eowyn Relationship
Trust me to come up with something like this. :P How real could a relationship between these two be? What were Grima's motives concerning The White Lady? Was anyone else aware of his intentions? Who exactly is Grima Wormtongue? A puppet of Saruman, a dark henchman, or a man with his own plan?

Grima, like so many other mysterious men of classic literature, is one heck of a character. We don't see much of him, but so much may be guessed from so little. So, let's begin our discussion. Feel free to ask any questions, or hazard any guesses.

If we get to it, I'd love to discuss aspects of both fanon and canon Grima, and the fanon and canon relationship he has with Eowyn. So, if you you've read any fan fiction concerning Grima Wormtongue feel free to bring that into the discussion as well. :)
Author:  Nurrantiel Mashiara [ July 28th, 2008, 12:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Ooh, such an interesting topic. I don't think enough is really said of Grima, more's the pity. We analyze Gollum to death, delve into the betrayal of Saruman and the madness of Denethor, yet fail to see the smaller characters.

To the first point: Grima's motives towards Eowyn. I believe he lusted after her, perhaps loved her in his own fashion. And I think in his own way, he believed that his power (he was close to the king) would make her love him back. I think only Eomer (book and movie) was really aware of what he was doing, and even then I don't think he was fully aware. He knew something was up, but didn't know how dangerous it had become.

I think Grima was on his own. He accepted Saruman's help because he felt it would further his own ends. He wanted power, wanted Eowyn. With the help of Saruman to poison Theoden, he could get them. I don't think he wanted the race of men to fall, or for the Rohirrim to be destroyed.
Author:  Hanasian [ August 5th, 2008, 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canon Conundrum: The Grima/Eowyn Relationship
Larael wrote:
How real could a relationship between these two (Grima & Eowyn) be?
1. What were Grima's motives concerning The White Lady?
2. Was anyone else aware of his intentions?
3. Who exactly is Grima Wormtongue? A puppet of Saruman, a dark henchman, or a man with his own plan?

I edited down your post to the questions to help me address them. I love your word 'fanon' by the way. ;)

1. Chances for a 'real' relationship between Grima and Eowyn be in the romantic sense is zero. It was a severe lust on his part and severe revulsion on her part.

2. Both Eowyn's brother Eomer and her cousin Theodred were aware of Grima's desires for her, though, as Mashiara said, not to the extent it had become.

3. Grima was all three at some point. It saw Grima as starting out as his own man with plans, becoming a dark henchman of Saruman, and later after all hope of his plans involving Eowyn and Rohan fell apart, became the puppet side-kick of Saruman's.


Eowyn was basically a stalking victim in her own home. She had nowhere else to go, and her uncle King Theoden was totally under the influence of Grima, so she could not go to him. Only her brother Eomer and her cousin Theodred could shield her from him when they were around. Of course, Grima having the King's ear made sure these two were out on various military assignments as much as possible.

Grima's motives toward Eowyn was obviously to posses her. [fanon] I think it was Grima's intention to eventually engineer a wedding between him and Eowyn, allowing him to become a part of the royal family, and eventually king [/fanon]. Grima was a man of Rohan [fanon] with possibly some Dunlanding blood mixed in to his family-line during the past occupation of 2758-59 [/fanon]. Grima was his own man for the most part, having a gift of being able to say convincing words. In his ambition, he secretly allied himself with Saruman, who saw Grima as the perfect 'inside man' and used his power to enhance Grima's abilities of pursuasion. He was then able to convince Theoden that he was old and feeble and to be evermore open to his suggestions. He then worked to engineer the death of heir-apparent Theodred, [fanon] and to attempt the same thing to next-in-line Eomer to further his dream [/fanon] Of course, Eomer was a bit of a rouge in following the King's orders which he rightly perceived as proxy-orders from Grima, and he managed to cause a bit of havoc to both Grima's and Saruman's plans (attacking the orcs that had Pippin & Merry). This was the beginning of the end of his un-doing, and he went into damage-control with the charges, arrest, and jailing of Eomer for disobeying the King's orders. But Grima's grandiose plans had started to un-ravel, needing only Gandalf to break Saruman's enhancing spell on him for everyone, including King Theoden, to see him for what he was.
Author:  Freya Baggins [ August 6th, 2008, 12:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
I know this entirely innacurate... but I believe that Eowen represented the entirety of Middle Earth and Grima represented Saruman's greed... but that's just me and my randomness. :)
Author:  mephiston, lord of death [ August 31st, 2008, 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canon Conundrum: The Grima/Eowyn Relationship
Larael wrote:
Trust me to come up with something like this. :P How real could a relationship between these two be? What were Grima's motives concerning The White Lady? Was anyone else aware of his intentions? Who exactly is Grima Wormtongue? A puppet of Saruman, a dark henchman, or a man with his own plan?

Grima, like so many other mysterious men of classic literature, is one heck of a character. We don't see much of him, but so much may be guessed from so little. So, let's begin our discussion. Feel free to ask any questions, or hazard any guesses.

If we get to it, I'd love to discuss aspects of both fanon and canon Grima, and the fanon and canon relationship he has with Eowyn. So, if you you've read any fan fiction concerning Grima Wormtongue feel free to bring that into the discussion as well. :)


What were Grima's motives concerning The White Lady?
I would say his motives could mirror that of a person greedy for wealth: To hoard it for themselves and deny it to everyone else. I think that Wormtongue wanted to keep Eowyn's beauty for himself, regardless of her feelings. (Anyone familiar with Clegg from the novel "The Collector" will be familiar with this type of character.)

Was anyone else aware of his intentions?
Eowyn certainly was (and was disgusted), as was Eomer and Theodred.Im pretty sure Saruman also knew, as I believe that Eowyn was part of the price of his treachery.Theoden was too far under the spell of Saruman to notice,but I think that quite a few of the Kings own servants would have some knowledge of it, including cetainly Hama.

Who exactly is Grima Wormtongue? A puppet of Saruman, a dark henchman, or a man with his own plan?

I thnk that in looking at Wormtongue, one can see an echo of Maeglin, son of Eol from the Silmarillion. He harbours a dark desire for that which he cannot have under the conventions of his race or nation (Maeglin because of his relation to Idril, Grima because he is not "royalty" )
I think that Wormtongue is a man acting alone, in the sense that he has a plan to achieve his desires, and he believes he is using Saruman to achieve this plan, but at the same time, is being manipulated by Saruman. The way in which he is reduced to being Saruman's "Dog" and his ignoble death from Hobbit archers in my view really backs this up.

All in all, I think Grima is a man who has lost his way, driven by his lusts to his end, where he may have been a valiant and honourable man, given discipline.

Mephiston[/b]
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