I can't believe my previous threads on him got locked. At any rate, I love this character to bits, and I believe he deserves to be discussed. How does Grima's allegiance change? Why would such a change take place? Where does his love for Eowyn stem from? To what extent does she know of this love? In fact, is it love at all? Just a few questions to get started.

I think that Tolkien makes a similar character in Grima to that which he used for Maeglin son fo Aredhel. He falls in love with someone who does not reciprocate his love/ in any case cannot due to status or relation and is twisted by his desire to have what he cannot. He's obsessed, but rather than just accept he cannot, the intensity of emotion forces him to get her at any cost. Hence his allegiance changes to Saruman.Its a case of putting yourself in the place of a man who must have soemthing, regardless of the cost.
Yet he was not always such a person ,I think it was Theoden who said he was once a faithful servant of Rohan, and invited him to fetchhis own weapons and armour to prove his allegiance. Yet I think Grima recognised in himself no real ability for penance after years bound to Saruman (or had lost the typical Rohirric martial spirit after years of ruling by whispers in Theodens ear), and so was not willing to change again. He's an example of Tolkiens propensity towards intense emotions within his characters. As for whether it is love or not, well, its one of those things. If we go by a older kind of love; a willingness to go as far as is necessary to win the woman, well, praps, but I would veer to more obsession than love. Love would imply a purer emotion or motive to me, but hey, that is a place of perspectives.

Grima's a character that allows much interpretation - to a certain extent at least. That is simply because we know very little about him - about his youth, about the time he came to Theoden's court and became his adviser, how his allegiance turned from Theoden away to Saruman, and why he seems to be so desperately in love, obsessive even, with Eowyn.

Now, I haven't seen the movies or read the books in a some time, so please correct me if I'm saying something wrong. But I believe Grima to be a very tragic person, very sad. I think he once was a patriot of Rohan, and in his heart he stayed one till his end. Only that his belief for what's best for his country changed away from thinking Theoden can protect and serve the country well to believing that Rohan's only chance to survive in this huge wave of conflicts is with the help of Saruman only.
Parallel to this, I believe that Grima has been envious of Theodred, Eomer, and even Eowyn for being members of the royal family, and for having a royal father person - a king - such as Theoden. I think his hatred toward the younger generation roots from his own wish to have a father who listens to his counsel and who thinks him important, just as Theoden does later on. So, in Grima's eyes, it's a rivalry about power and Theoden's love he thinks he has to fight with Theodred and Eomer.
As to Eowyn - I think this relationship is the most complex one in Grima's life. He envies her place in court and family. He tries to influence her into thinking they are equal. He makes her feel isolated, just as he himself feels isolated. As if he was her only chance to make her life better. I believe that he thinks her to be the only person who could possibly understand him at one point. And he was trying to make her understand. Her falling in love with him would have been a boost of his own confidence, I believe. Whereas he often acts very confidently, I'm not so sure if he truly is confident. I think, Grima envies her on the one side, but tries to make her an equal in his pain and misery on the other side - and here roots his obsession with her.

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I like your interpretations of him. I don't think he was portrayed well in the movies but it is the movies that stand out clearest in my mind. I think in some way he was too one-dimensional in the movies although you could tell there was so much more to him... his character and his reasons to betray his people weren't elaborated on.
I just wanted to say that I loved to read everyone's analysis and I can't wait to re-read the books.

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Banner credit: Shadowcat & Nurrantiel Mashiara

In the books you really pity him. And you really want him to leave Saruman when they encounter them on the way back to Rivendell!

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'Come bite the apple and I'll crawl around your heart'

I know! It's like that scene in TTT, after Gollum comes back from planning with Shelob, and almost changes his mind after seeing Frodo asleep. They're wavering, and it's so tragic because they can't quite manage to change.

Regarding Saruman's hold over Grima; are we supposed to see that as the same kind of hold he had over Theoden? Was Grima really under a 'spell' of some sort, or did Saruman just manipulate him? I suppose it doesn't have to be one or the other; it could be a combination of both.

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~Set by Lembas~If we grow up we're all going to be famous.

I think to begin with it was promises but there must be influence of another kind in there. So I'd so both. After Saruman was able to take over the Shire so not all his power was spent.

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'Come bite the apple and I'll crawl around your heart'

I think Grima is one of those characters who don't quite realize they've let their greed take over. I think to begin with, Saruman promised him things he wanted, and because he's greedy he did what was asked of him. Possibly Eowyn was one of those things, because I think his love for Eowyn isn't love so much as lust - he wants her because he knows she's not for him.
Also I think maybe Grima doesn't fully realize just how evil Saruman really is, until he goes to Isengard. You see this quite clearly in the movies when he's on the balcony and he sees all the Uruk-Hai; Grima hasn't understood that Saruman means to exterminate the people of Rohan in his quest for total dominion. And so I think to a certain extent Grima was tricked and by the time he realized what was going on it was too late to back out.

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by Lembas

...I read a fanfiction on Grima and Éowyn before, basically Grima repents and Éowyn falls in love with him. I know I'm making it sound plain and boring, but it's actually quite a good fanfic. The reason why I'm mention this is because it really make me notice Grima more. Before that I'll admit I never paid too much attention to him. But he really is an interesting character.

Interesting yes... But Saruman really treats him badly.

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Yes, he does. I'm currently rereading Two Towers (I'm on page 14, so I haven't gotten very far yet), so once I get to the part with Grima again maybe I'll be able to provide some more thought-provoking comments. He does seem to be rather corrupted, "like a snake" as some would say, but I don't feel it's entirely his fault, and the abuse he suffers from Saruman seems to contribute to his bad habits a little.

Well, one thing is that Sarumon's words poisoned Grima, and I assume that Grima wanted power and was Jealous, so he let the poisoned words sink in and kept turning them in his head until he was resolved and corrupt, that's what I think.
Also, I don't think Grima loved Eowyn but thought that she was beautiful. Like Hades did when he saw Persephone.

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"Where'd you go if I may ask?" said Thorin to Gandalf
"To look ahead" said he.
"What brought you back in the nick of time?"
"Looking behind"

I agree with this. ^^ But I also believe that he could have fallen in love with her if she had shown even a slight interest. Though to be honest I do not recall a Grima/Eowyn relationship of any kind in the books. He was just a servant to Saurman. But memory might be failing me.

I agree too, and thought I might point out that in my opinion, Grima didn't really love Eowyn for who she was - at least, that's not how it appeared. rather, I think he just thought she was beautiful, and therefore was attracted to that beauty. I think beauty is a part of love, but not all of it, and therefore Grima's actions might have leaned more towards lust than real love.

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thanks for the Hobbit Team banner, Lembas!

I agree with Alanna, he didn't love Eowyn, it was selfish lust for her beauty. Nothing else.

By the way, Grima had to have something evil or mean inside if he agreed to work for Saruman. Or it had to be very big reward from the wizard. I believe its hard to hate Rohirrims...so he didn't do it from hatred. He had to be very greedy before. And the worst traits of his personality went in whole glory when he had to do what Saruman said.

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