One of the most interesting aspects of the book was the large amount of orc narrative used in the chapters describing Merry and Pippin's capture. For the first time, we learn a lot about orc society, such as it is, and the tribal differences, and their hideous behavior.

The whole Ugluk vs. Grishnakh arguments, and the lack of cohesion between the orcs that led to their defeat, are ver very interesting. There's also a frightful amount of intelligence, despite their evil nature. They're not stupid beasts, but beings with purpose and drive, and that makes them even more scary. This element of intelligence is lacking in a lot of the fantasy genre "orc-like" beings.

Some of this was lost in translation to the screen, although they were still hideous.

What was you impression when you read the orc sections for the first time?

_________________

I don't know, I didn't really think much of the Orcs while I was reading TTT. I was more concerned about Merry and Pippin. However, looking back on it, I kind of see what you mean. I don't think that all of them are "stupid beasts," maybe the lower ones, the ones who do all the grunt work. I can't see any bit of Elf in them anymore, assuming they were Elves once. The Uruk Hai, though, are extremely powerful mentally and physically. I thought they were cruel and horrible toward the hobbits, but you have to admire the fact that they're smarter than normal Orcs. I guess that was probably my impression of them.

~Miri

_________________
<center></center>

Yeah, as far as the groups that were in charge of Merry and Pip I would say there were about two, the Isenguard Uruk-Hai and the Barad-Dur orcs. But thats just me.

_________________
<center>~*The Not-Too-Much-Obsessed-With-Nature A-U Gentle-Woman*~<center>
"To hate, or not to hate. This shouldn't be a question."


~*PM Me for graphics*~

There were also the Moria goblins, which were sort of a variation of orc. Really, the orcs are almost to be pitied. They were beautiful creatures who were tortured and corrupted by evil, and now they exist only to do his bidding. You really get an insight to the orc's nature.

_________________

I don't know much about the different orc tribes. I was always very confusing to me I have to admit...

_________________
[!+~^$#&:;]

Yes, the orcs in the book of three distinct "tribes": The Uruk-Hai bred by Saruman to endure the sun; the Mordor orcs; (presumably sent from either Dol-Guldur or from inside Mordor) and the Misty Mountain orcs.

The assumption that orcs were created from elves is an old scholarly position:

Since Melkor/Morgoth could not "Create" beings such as Eru could (with independent wills, in other words, have the Flame Imperishable) then they must have come from some existing branch of life. Men, elves, or other spirits forms first corrupted by him long before.

Elves were first chosen as the preferred 'corrupted form' because the scholars studying Tolkien seized upon a few passages in his, books, letters and papers that noted the long life of orcs. It's very unlcear whether orcs are immortal. They have their own will, although that willpower is heavily influenced by their masters (they become very witless after the destruction of Sauron) They do certainly have longer-er life.

It's also been theorized that some form of lesser spirits corrupted by Morgoth may have formed in some basis the first orcs. Then the question of reproduction comes in, and we could go on all day!!!

_________________

^
wow thanks for the information. It was very useful.

_________________
[!+~^$#&:;]

I too was amazed with the whole intellecuity that the Orcs possessed. They were bred for just a single purpose and they weren't supposed to have there own kind of will to think. I noticed first off that the Orcs were not exactly staying to the plan they were assigned, which also surprised me because I think Saruman did not mean for them to have very much free will. You'll notice that some of them even want to go against Saruman, go off on their own, etc. It almost seems like that at any moment these Orcs could decide to do anything they wanted.

Saruman would definitely be surprised if they did, for he had no idea that they are really very cunning despite how they act in front of him.

^
*agrees* there was also a passage in the RotK book where one orc says to the other that after the war they just want to settle down somewhere and wanna go away from Sauron or so.

_________________
[!+~^$#&:;]

Ah, I didn't remember that, thanks for pointing it out Firiel.

That goes along with the point I made about the Orcs having a free will the Saruman almost didn't know about. The Orcs have brains and can decide things for themselves, unfortunately Saruman did not realise this and continued to treat the Orcs as stupid animals that kill. If I were an Orc I would have rebelled.

Wow. I hadn't seen this thread before. Over a year, and I haven't seen it.

Anyways, I thought that the racial distinctions were very interesting for the Orcs--mostly, I was noticing the physical differences, how the Moria goblins were smaller and paler, etc., how the Mordor orcs had longer arms, had their stooped way of walking and so on and so forth, and how the Uruk-hai were taller, broader, stronger, faster, etc.

_________________