I know what the rules are - but I also have rules higher than the rules of this forum.
I know we're not supposed to discuss religion and things on here. BUT - I've noticed that topics have been being closed because of their semi-religious content - trust me, what ever I say on here is not even close to the passion I have for God - but I think that (now, I'm not trying to revolutionize this forum, but...) we should have a thread somewhere that we can discuss/debate religions and give people theological help instead of sticking to PMing. That way it's open and people don't have to go in there and talk about it.

I know what I'm saying is straighforward, and I'm not sorry for that. I'm not ashamed of what I believe, and I think that other people will want to discuss this.

I know I'm asking a lot. But it's also my conviction.

Thank you.

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Well, one problem there is that no matter how mature and responsible and courteous the members of this forum, it's very easy for things to get taken the wrong way on the internet. An offhanded comment or an innocent question in the eyes of the poster could be read as a very cutting remark or sarcasm by someone on the receiving end. Even if the misunderstanding gets resolved, the relationship between those two will never be quite the same. If all the sudden we had all these rivalries and "sides" on the forum, the overall friendly atmosphere that is so delicately maintained on A-U would suffer.

I speak from experience because on a PotC forum that I'm also a member of, we had something like that happen. After much debate, the admin decided to permit a thread called "The Thunderdome," which provided a place for all of the shippers to debate whether Elizabeth should end up with Jack or with Will (petty, I know, and hardly applicable to religion, but bear with me). It started out as fairly harmless banter, and for the most part things remain under control, but it constantly has to be watched for signs of growing conflict. Every now and then, someone will get offended and fight fire with fire, and before you know it, we have a full-grown war going on in there. Now, the mods always manage to come in and calm things down eventually, but every time that happens, a few more rivalries, as it were, are formed. I'll be the first to admit that I view a few members differently now because of comments they've made to or about me (not good ones, trust me), simply because I ship a different pairing than they. It also leads to a lot of generalizations that affect interactions on the forum, such as "Well, all J/E shippers are rude and self-centered, so I don't even have to try being nice to them," or "All those W/E shippers are just old-fashioned and idealistic; they wouldn't understand what I'm talking about." It pains me to say it, but it happens. Oh- and I'm one of the only teens on this forum. A majority of the members are 30+ and many have grown children of their own. If such large rifts are created between grown adults over which fictional characters should get married, imagine the damage that could potentially be done by the discussion of such a personal topic as religion.

I don't wish to simply shoot down your idea (indeed, I'd love it if something like that could work out), and perhaps the powers-that-be will say differently, but I've just seen things like that fail too many times to put much faith in the ability of people to not get emotionally invested in a debate. As a fellow Christian, sometimes I really do wish that I could more openly discuss my beliefs, but I also understand the reasoning behind the rules. It might do a lot of good in some areas and help bring understanding, but there's also just too much potential for harm.

I understand that you have Faith and your beliefs which are important to who you are and influence your life in all aspects, Nightingale.... and I completely respect that. I have my own faith and belief system as well. However, the rules regarding religious discussions/topics/roleplays/etc, will stand. We need to remember as pirate stated above, that while we may all have good intentions when discussing religious ideals, this is the internet and we have people of all faiths here from all around this marvelous globe, and unfortunately debates are sure to ensue. The goal of all the Mods and the Great Arwen the Webmistress, is to create a fun, safe, comfortable environment for All here. When religious debates occur, as has happened in the past with both religions and politics, here and elsewhere, it has lead to hurt feelings, anger, distrust, and more.... which are Not conducive to a friendly, comfortable environment.

Remember everyone who joins this forum does so after checking that they agree with the Rules of said Forum. Therefore, they agree with the rules as they stand, not as they wish them to be. There are other forums specifically for Religious Faiths of various sorts and forums that allow religious and political topics, and some with mods who don't care how nasty and insulting some of those debates can be...As pirateoftherings mentioned above, they can be very ugly,...but this is not one of those Sites, and I for one am glad... sure I have opinions on politics and religion, but I do prefer the happy environment here and the community feeling that comes from not having such issues arise to separate the forum into groups as to whom believes what, who voted for whom and so on...

Also, another point I think needs brought up.. This is a Lord of the Rings Forum. While we have many, many areas of discussion here, this is not a Religious Forum, which I'm not saying to insult anyone, so please don't be offended. I'm simply saying the main discussion of this site is meant to focus on the books, movies, music, actors ...etc of the LotR and it's fabulous author. However, as previously mentioned again, there are outlets available here for you to discuss things with like-minded faiths, such as the PM system. Now if you would like a list developed as to who is willing to discuss what in religion, such as who will accept pm's for prayer requests, or who will accept pm's for debate or discussion....that's a possibility, but there will Not be a place in the Forum for general religious topics, debates, advice and so on. I'm sorry, it's not meant to offend anyone, it's to keep from offending anyone at all.

~tin

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[~+@&#=^?]

..back again, picking myself up, dusting off..and facing life..

i know this won't make a difference, but i just wanted to put in my two penny's worth.

first, it's not a given that any thread on religion will turn ugly, and to be quite honest i don't appreciate the way your presumption reflects on people like me and the nightingale who do want to talk about our faith.

second, it needn't even be a debate - why couldn't it be a group? another forum i'm a member of has a group/club/alliance/whatever-you-want-to-call-it for christians, and people post prayer requests and share answers to prayer etc - nobody ever argues and it never turns nasty because it's not a debate, just a place where like-minded people can talk. A-U already has a million other groups that work the same way, so i don't see why there couldn't be a group for christians.

third, yes this is a lord of the rings forum, but it also covers almost everything else under the sun, so i don't see how that can be used to argue against discussing religion. anyhow, given tolkien's faith and it's massive implications for his work mean that no discussion of lord of the rings is complete without an examination of it's christian themes - religion is an intrinsic part of lord of the rings.

fourth, practically any subject can turn into an argument, not just religion and politics. you trust people to be fair and sensible in most cases, so why not with regards to religion and politics?

i don't mean to sound like i'm getting angry, because i'm not - i just wanted to show that the nightingale isn't the only person that feels this way.

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<center>

**MY BOOK**

~ proud to be a shieldmaiden for christ ~</center>

The rule on religion will stand. We've had enough problems with even threads that minorly delve into religion before. There's a reason why people say that religion, politics, and money are topics that you should stay away from in smalltalk. <i>Especially</i> on the internet, religion and politics are two topics that are bound to turn ugly. All it takes is one person to come in and say something that could be completely innocent to that person, but comes across wrong to one other person, to cause huge rifts between members and destroy the peace we work toward.

We have the PM system for topics about religion, and believe me, there are plenty of other forums, LotR, non-LotR, and completely religion-oriented, plus any number of IM services, where you can talk about religious matters to your heart's content. This is not one of those forums. The religious rule is one that is non-negotiable, just like the politics rule and the profanity rule.

No one is asking you to be ashamed of your religious beliefs. We're just asking you to talk about them somewhere else.

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But it is a given that people will disagree. And, as I said before, this is the internet, where things are written, not said, and can very easily be misinterpretted. A completely innocuous statement can rapidly snowball out of control and cause many hurt feelings due to one incorrect interpretation. I don't know to whom "your" refers, but my presumption is not that people who want to talk about their faith will cause conflict- it is that humans will be humans, and I believe that tin's is the same. Even now, a simple explanation of the rules has insulted someone. If a discussion of whether or not we should discuss religion can cause conflict, imagine what would happen once it actually got to the personal subject of religion. I can guarantee that someone would end up insulted.

Concerning your proposition for a group, we did have a Prayer Request thread for the longest time, and things more or less went very smoothly. Those who wished to participate posted in it, and those who were offended stayed away. However, a while ago, someone began complaining that the Prayer Request thread violated the "No Religion" rule, and that since every other rule was firmly enforced, this one should meet the same standards. The Prayer Request thread was locked. Do I wish that it could have stayed open? Yes, because I do not feel that we were causing any harm. However, I accept the decision of the Webmissy and the Mods, and I understand their reasoning. Their goal is to keep this forum, as tindomerel said, "a friendly, comfortable environment," and I respect that. We have since developed a group that exchanges prayer requests via pm, and I find it to be just as effective, and less potentially confrontational.

Tolkien may have been a man of faith, and his faith may have influenced his story, but he himself stated that Lord of the Rings is not an allegorical tale. Though I do enjoy finding links and parallels, there is much that can be discussed concerning his works that does not involve religion.

It's true that any subject can turn into an argument, and many times it does. The difference between, say, which brand of soda is better and politics/religion, however, is that an individual's choice of soda comes purely from personal tastes, while one's religious and political inclinations are deeply rooted in one's beliefs, and in the very core of one's being. If you try to tell me that Coke is better than Pepsi, I might teasingly argue a bit and make some far-fetched claim about your sanity, but I'm not going to care much. To each his own. But if someone questions my faith, I am going to passionately defend my God.

And, eowyn and nightingale, I hope that you don't feel that you are the only two who wish that we could have a good, clean debate. As I said before, I'll be first to admit to having a slightly confrontational nature. I'm not a passive observer -as is probably already evident-, and I'm not afraid to defend my views. In fact, I love a good debate and have engaged in many very interesting discussions via pm. However, there is a time and a place for discussion and debate, and a public internet forum is not one such place. Even through pm, I've had things turn ugly due to a casual comment or question. There was one member (now hardly ever active) who I used to get along with fairly well until we got into a debate over religion, and now she refuses to even speak to me. Imagine that, but with one thousand members instead of two. The chances of someone getting hurt are simply too high to justify the risk taken.

You can pm me if you wish to hear my more "religious" opinions on the subject.


EDIT: Arwen beat me to it I am in agreement with Teh Webmissy.

I agree again with the Webmissy and Pirateoftherings, completely.

Also Eowyn and Nightingale, I meant no insult whatsoever to you or your faiths...nor did I assume that All religious topics would turn ugly... I know from experience that here, on this site, they have turned into heated debates a very vast majority of the time... I have seen members who were the closest friends turn against one another over both religious and political "discussions"... I did not mean that Your threads would be "ugly" or bad or any other derrogatory term.... I simply meant that we have seen it go that way, several times and it's been a headache, heartache, and general ache to see the discourse that ensued.

I have my own faith or "religion"...and I'm not ashamed of it nor do I hide it... and I don't think you should either if that's how you feel... but here we do it through the PM system or IM's, not on the main forum and I like every other member, must abide by that rule.

Have a great evening ...

~tin

_________________
[~+@&#=^?]

..back again, picking myself up, dusting off..and facing life..

I, too, agree with the Webmissy and Piratesoftherings.

As for eowyn and Nightingale, I mean no offense when I say this. I'm an atheist. One of the reasons why I became one is because there has been so many wars, debates, and lawsuits fought over religion. Not saying that everyone has a religion are violent or love to argue but I would very much like it if this forum does not become another battleground over religion. If only if people respected each other's beliefs, then we wouldn't have a problem. Even as an atheist, I respect your beliefs even if I don't believe in them. But people don't respect each other's beliefs and that causes problems. I'm not saying the world would be better off without religion (because there are some good things that come from religion) but in all honesty, I would really prefer if religious matters remained inside the PM system. As for myself, I do not mind if people have a Prayer Request thread. It comforts them, I know that. I do not see how that can offend me and if it did, how I can deal with it. But I can not guarantee that I will be this peaceful if someone were to say, "Atheists are fools". Once again, I'm not saying religious people think that way.
You have my beliefs and I have mine and there is nothing in the world that can change them except ourselves. Why can't we just sit down and respect them?

By the way, please don't think differently of me because I'm an atheist.

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I was cured all right.

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^ By me and my SS *squiggle hugs*

That's the main thing I was getting at. If people are coming and asking for help, I think that different people have different ways of helping them out. And even just a simple "I'm praying for you" can help them, and it's not exactly religious.

I do understand what everyone is saying, though. Would it be okay if I mentioned I was open to PMing about religious topics in my signature, or would that be going too far?

_________________
<center>
Receiving So Much More.

PM me with prayer requests
www.therebelution.com
</center>

Well...prayers <i>are</i> inherently religious. However, there have been discussions in the past about replacing the prayer thread with a generic sort of "well wishes" thread, where people can ask to be wished good luck, whether that comes in religious or non-religious forms.

We have a member "code" so people can talk about various subjects via PM - you can view the code symbols and more information at http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9653

_________________

Thank you for directing me there!
I will be sure to use the symbols.
~The Nightingale

_________________
<center>
Receiving So Much More.

PM me with prayer requests
www.therebelution.com
</center>

I would love a religious and politics section on this forum as debating is only healthy and that is really what you're supposed to do on a forum. I do however realize and respect the fact that said topics are off-limits here.

The only way a peaceful religious and political disucssion would work on a forum is if all members were of the exact same belief as well as political ideology (or if all members would just respect all religious political opinions) and we all know that we have members here of almost every religion and political ideology possible.

I never get offended so I wouldn't care or mind if a debate turned ugly or if everyone ganged up on me, calling me a liar but I think the majority of members here take their beliefs, values and opinions very seriously and would therefore get offended extremely easily. The key is to not take things personally but from experiences on this forum that seems to be rather difficult for most people.

Like I said, I would love to have a place to discuss these important matters but I do know that it will never happen and I am perfectly fine with that - after all, I have my own forum for such debates

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.*+I'VE MET ANTIGONE, MONTANABOHEMIAN, RAIVYNN PHOENIX, BERIADANWEN & PIRATEOFTHERINGS+*.

(¯`•¸·´¯`·._.·[TRUE VAMPIRES DON'T SPARKLE]·._.·´¯`·¸•´¯)

Yes, because we don't allow those certain debates and discussions here; we encourage members to, if they trust their own maturity and their behavior in handling discussions like that, join one of outside forums run by members and have fun.

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THE HALLOWFEST 2010
<a href="http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20958">information here</a>

</center>

If you want to see an example of a politics and religion thread turned ugly, visit my forum. All these Mods are 100% correct. Plus there's this one religion discussion thread.. allegedly about one specific topic. And guess what? 7 out of 9 pages in that thread are completely off-topic. And there was a lot of trolling in there.

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I have my own religion and political beliefs, as most people here, and I have no problems talking about it. But I would have a problem debating it - here, at least.
I have many forums with my friends online, and I have gotten into deep, serious, never-ending debates with my friends that can leave you feeling exhausted and empty. Yes, I do enjoy debating and talking about my religion there with my close freinds, but it is an entirely different situation. We know each other well, so hopefully no permanent scars are made. We also see each other every day in real life, so if we had a conflict on the forum the night before we can explain oursleves more fully and make up in real life.

These are two things that we don't have here. We don't have a personal, deep firendship with everyone here, and we also don't see each other often in RL. As people have already mentioned, nasty arguments are much more likely to break out online because of misunderstandments.

Also, I am so thankful that A-U, for the most part, is a haven from those kinds of arguments. Peaceful discussions are taking place through PM, so A-U is not entirely devoid of these subjects, and that is a good thing. But whenever something slightly related to religion - a thread about ghosts, for instance - pops up, things turn very ugly. As someone has said, this is a Lord of the Rings forum. Sure, there are religious themes in LotR, but that is best discussed through PM. And, sure, you can find political overtones in LotR, but once again, discussion could ignite ugly argument.

If I were certain such discussions would not lead to hurt feelings, forum-wide wars, and new rivalries, then sure. Let the friendly discussions begin.

But honestly, we're human. I trust the Mod's judgement. We've had skirmishes before - the long standing Arwen vs. Eowyn camps, for instance - but they are nothing compared to what debates over deep convictions could bring.

I believe PotR said it best, and my little rant is becoming sort of messy. I certainly don't think people should never disagree or debate, in fact I'm all for it, hurt feelings or no. But that's real life, where issues can make changes and people can forgive and forget. That would be harder when it's here, in black and white, strange comments from people you've never met. It's much easier to attack a screen name than a person.

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