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PostPosted: February 20th, 2007, 6:17 pm 


*cough* I'm wandering, not wondering...

Well, it is in the Encyclopedia of Arda entery for Cirdan (in a fashion) And i think it was either said at the end of ROTK, or in the appendices somewhere. I'll have a look when I'm reading in bed tonight, and see if I can find it.

EDIT: And another point. If Cirdan sailed over the sea, who made the boat in which Sam followed Frodo, all those years later?


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PostPosted: February 20th, 2007, 10:28 pm 
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^ooh, good question....I shall ponder this...

Aerandir wrote:
Lol, PoI--what would they gain by that? :laugh: :lol:

That's really funny.


I *DON'T* KNOW. They were bored???
They wanted to see what was on the other side of the Sea of Rhun, OK? [Sorry, I'm on a bit of a sugar rush right now]

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2007, 3:43 am 


Princess of Ithilien wrote:
^ooh, good question....I shall ponder this...


lol, that's the point :P Cirdan didn't sail with Gandalf and Frodo. He maintained the havens into the fourth age, so he was there to build the boat which Sam will have used to cross the sea.


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PostPosted: February 21st, 2007, 6:11 am 
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Wandering Dark... ahem... typo.. sorry, corrected now!
Alright, I was just wondering if you had the direct source, because obviously EoA has the information from Tolkien.. somewhere in his extensive work!

Wait... did Sam sail across the sea? It just sounds too good to be true if he, too, was granted passage...

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2007, 6:45 am 
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During the years of the trees (before the first age), around 1150, Olwe(king of the Telerin Elves of Aman, younger brother of Thingol) lead many of the Teleri to the undying lands, but Cirdan remained behind in Middle-earth because of something Ulmo, one of the Valar, had warned him of in a dream:

Quote:
And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. "Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after." "I obey," Cirdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Cirdan upon the strand where he stood.
The History of Middle-earth, vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth: "Last Writings - Cirdan," p. 386


And of course, in between lots of stuff happens. Like, Cirdan gives Narya to Gandalf and tells him: "I will await you," which he does indeed- we all know that scene well.

Cirdan did not sail to the Undying lands himself until the sixty-second year of the fourth age with Sam (Sam to was a ringbearer, if only for a time; they were all given passage). For it was he who was told to wait out the longest for only then would al his waiting be of worth. Though he longed for home, many had passed before him.

Quote:
"Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after."


So yeah. Cirdan sailed on the last ship he built on those shores with Samwise.

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2007, 7:22 am 
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Just to clear up some factual errors from before:

It may indeed be that the white ship upon which Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo left on September 29th, 3021; was indeed refering to the last one leaving bearing the high elves, and thus a metaphorical end to the time of the elves because the leaders have left, even though some elves still remain.


Legolas and Gimli left Middle Earth in 120 of the fourth age, after the death of Aragorn. Legolas built a grey ship and set sail down the Anduin with Gimli, togetherthe last two members of the fellowship left Middle-earth and sailed over the sea into the West.

No were does it say that was the last ship. For I believe, the last ship was the last one built upon the shores of Middle-earth by Cirdan, upon which Sam and himself sailed. EDITED: Though my reckoning may be false, since Cirdan and Sam left before Legolas and Gimli.

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Last edited by Arien Elensar on February 21st, 2007, 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2007, 11:08 am 
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Do you have a source stating for sure that Sam passed over the Sea? As I remember it, in the Appendices, it was mentioned something like "but it was told in years after that he went to the shores of the Great Sea, and passed over it...." etc. Something along those lines, but not actually stating it as a fact.

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2007, 12:31 pm 
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*Whips out copy of 'Return of the King' and flips to the apendix*

In 1482 it says

Quote:
Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers


And the later in 1541 it says

Quote:
Then Legolas bilt a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down the Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. An when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.


Hope that clears a few thigs up.

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2007, 5:41 pm 
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Yup, Fair Rider quoted the exact source. :)

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PostPosted: February 21st, 2007, 5:59 pm 
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fair rider wrote:
*Whips out copy of 'Return of the King' and flips to the apendix*

In 1482 it says

Quote:
Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers


And the later in 1541 it says

Quote:
Then Legolas bilt a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down the Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. An when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.


Hope that clears a few thigs up.



When you say: '1482' and '1541', did you state that in Shire reckoning? Sorry, but I'm probably just confused. I usually refer to it by age, like: Cirdan and Sam left in 62 of the fourth age, and Legolas and Gimli in 120 of the fourth age.

I think this also answers another question that I may have confused a bit earlier. Cirdan's ship was the last grey ship that he built in Middle-earth, while I believe Legolas and Gimli's craft was the actually last sailing 'craft' (lol) to leave Middle-earth, since they did leave after Cirdan and Sam.

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PostPosted: February 22nd, 2007, 6:46 am 
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Yes it is Shire reconing. Sorry for not putting that in.

Also another thought occured to me. In the book it says that it was the end of the Fellowship of the Ring. But Legolas may not be the last elf to sail over the sea. What if others followed his lead and built their own ships? After all, Professor Tolkien didn't say anything after Legolas and Gimli sailed.

It was just a thought that occured to me. What do you think?

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Last edited by fair rider on February 22nd, 2007, 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: February 22nd, 2007, 7:15 am 
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No worries. :)

Hm, to sort this out...

The ship of Elrond, Galadriel, Frodo, Gandalf and Bilbo was the last carrying high elves.

Cirdan and Sam left on the last grey ship built upon the shores of Middle-earth by Cirdan. It also carried the last of the ringbearers

The ship of Legolas and Gimli is the ship that carried the last of the fellowship.

You know, you're right he never does specify any ship as being the 'last to sail from Middle earth'. Does he...?

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PostPosted: February 22nd, 2007, 8:01 am 
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I agree with your first section, though I don't remember any source that says that Cirdan sailed with Sam.

As for the second, well, I agree with that too. :P

That last point is what is in dispute. I personally agree that other elves could easily have built their own ships and sailed over, too, but others have their own opinions.

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PostPosted: February 22nd, 2007, 12:03 pm 


There is no source that says Sam and Cirdan crossed together. (To the best of my knowledge) So it is quite possible that Cirdan stayed long after Sam left.


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PostPosted: February 22nd, 2007, 4:00 pm 
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Actually, there are a few sources that say Sam and Cirdan sailed together:

Quote:
The final two Ringbearers had yet to pass across the sea, but in the sixty-second year of the Fourth Age of the Sun, Samwise Gamgee, faithful companion of Frodo Baggins, arrived in Mithlond, and he and Círdan sailed away on the last of the ships built by that great shipwright upon those shores. And so in the end, the words of Ulmo were proved truthful as well, for that Vala had warned Círdan not to fare over the sea then, but instead to wait and work upon the shores of Beleriand and Middle-Earth, and he had obeyed through all those long years, though kin and friend had passed before him, even though the longing for home had engulfed his heart those long years.

For Ulmo had said unto him in a dream, "Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after." And Círdan had sworn to obey, though his kin sailed ahead of him, and he had wished to follow. Yet in return, Ulmo's words had been the truth, for none shall forget the Shipwright and his deeds upon these shores, not while others still live to remember him and tell the tales of his greatest deeds.

And:

Quote:
Cirdan remained behind at the Grey Havens to await the departure of the Elves who still lingered in Middle-earth at the beginning of the Fourth Age. It is believed that when the Last Ship finally embarked from the Grey Havens, Cirdan himself was able to sail to the Undying Lands.


Hm, this last quote fails to mention anything about Samwise. It also regards it as the 'last ship'.

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PostPosted: February 23rd, 2007, 3:22 am 
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What was that first quote from, Arien?

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