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PostPosted: April 10th, 2007, 1:26 am 
Vala
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I recall reading somewhere that Beren/Lúthien, Tuor/Idril, and Aragorn/Arwen were the only Edain/Noldor unions. I think I read that when I was wondering about how Imrahil could have elven blood if only those three pairs had gotten together.

Also, didn't Aegnor and Andreth merely love each other, with nothing every coming from it? I haven't actually read the story myself since it's from Morgoth's Ring (I think), which I haven't read, but I did read a bit about it online.

Anyways, I think there could still be a human/elf union if it wasn't Edain/Noldor. I think.

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PostPosted: April 10th, 2007, 9:47 am 
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Lol--I don't remember specifically which book it was, but it was definitely either LotR, The Silmarillion, or The Unfinished Tales :P

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PostPosted: April 11th, 2007, 9:02 am 
Vala
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Lol, Aerlinn. :P I don't always remember useful details either--this is just one specific bit that I remember, since I had wondered about it myself.

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PostPosted: January 26th, 2017, 9:55 am 
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Aerandir wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that Beren/Lúthien, Tuor/Idril, and Aragorn/Arwen were the only Edain/Noldor unions. I think I read that when I was wondering about how Imrahil could have elven blood if only those three pairs had gotten together.


It's noted in Appendix A that there were only three unions of "High Elves and Men" ... later revised by Tolkien [second edition] to "There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn."

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Also, didn't Aegnor and Andreth merely love each other, with nothing every coming from it? I haven't actually read the story myself since it's from Morgoth's Ring (I think), which I haven't read, but I did read a bit about it online.


Yes, but they were not wedded and had no children.

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Anyways, I think there could still be a human/elf union if it wasn't Edain/Noldor. I think.


If not singular, Tolkien still noted that such unions were rare, and he characterized the notion of Elvish blood in the line of Dol Amroth as a legend. And while it does appear that Legolas believes the legend [so why not the reader] when he sees Imrahil, we can also note that Turin seemed Elvish too, for example: "... he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal Men... Many called him Adanedhel, the Elf-man." And if one chooses to believe the legend -- noting the seeming strangeness of an Elf-mother apparently leaving her family for some reason -- then Tolkien is still careful to note that, in one tradition, Mithrellas (the elven mother in question in this tradition) "was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey)" Unfinished Tales

Thus Mithrellas wasn't one of the Eldar * ... although technically Arwen was one of the Pereldar, she counted in any case.

* the term Eldar as described in The Lord of the Rings anyway (basically all the Elves that passed Over Sea as a result of the Great March, plus the Sindar only).


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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 28th, 2017, 4:30 pm 
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Well Imrahil is the descendant of the people of Dol Amroth, which was named for Amroth, lover of Nimrodel. Basically what happened is that they both decided to leave ME, so Amroth went to get a ship ready, and Nimrodel was to follow. However, Nimrodel ended up getting lost in the White mountains on her way to the southern havens, along with her handmaidens and was never heard from again, and Amroth's ship was unmoored by a storm, he jumped over the side, tried to swim back, and drowned.

However, Nimrodel's handmaidens may have found their way out, run into some men of southern Gondor, and set up a little community inhabited by half elves and Men. They called it Dol Amroth.

At least that's my impression of what happened. I'm not sure though.

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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 28th, 2017, 9:02 pm 
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I had not heard of Dol Amroth. Sounds like a neat little legend. I would agree that if Legolas seemed to believe it... why not the reader?

It sounds like the makings of a grand RP if you ask me. haha

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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 28th, 2017, 10:25 pm 
Gondorian
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Well, I think it's possible, at least, that even Legolas can be fooled by looks and bearing, but my main point is that I don't think we can deal with this matter as factually as others. In a very late note Tolkien once again calls this a legend, and notes that in some versions the Elf-maden was Nimrodel (if improbably), while in other tales [plural] it was one of Nimrodel's companions. Moreover, the legend is rather conveniently "beset" with the detail that when the Elf-maiden had born a son and daughter, she "slipped away by night and he [Imrazor] saw her no more."

Hmm. So the "proof" of Elven ancestry, for some reason, disappeared even early on. Why slip away by night, seemingly leaving her children? There might be some reason, yes, but according to Laws And Customs Among the Eldar: "Yet it would seem to any of the Eldar a grievious thing if a wedded pair were sundered during the bearing of a child, or while the first years of its childhood lasted."

Hmm. Well, as noted, technically Mithrellas, if Mithrellas it was, wasn't an "Elda", but still. What if, say, this Imrazor had exceptionally fair children with a bearing or air that seemed "Elvish"... might folks begin possibly to wonder if there was an Elf involved? What had happened to Imrazor's wife, exactly? Maybe she was an Elf, and as the proof had vanished it became easy enough for those whispering that this line "must" have Elvish blood. Others might note that if the Elf-maiden had remained, she would not die, not even for many generations, and so she could be pointed to as certain proof for many a year... so... well, to claim Elvish heritage one has to add something like she "slipped away at night".

Hmm. But then, Tolkien should expect his readers will likely trust the judgement of Legolas [flip]... or did the legend influence Legolas a bit here? Maybe? [flop]


In any case, the history of Dol Amroth itself is a bit misty. There is a late note by JRRT [see Cirion And Eorl, note 39, Unfinished Tales] wherein the stronghold of a family of the Faithful of Numenor was established before the fall of Numenor, so that it must have been much later -- more than two thousand years [!] before Galador's day, keeping in mind that it was Galador [son of Imrazor] who was said to have an Elven mother, and who is called the "first Lord of Dol Amroth" in another text -- much later that this place was actually named Dol Amroth. While it's possible that this area was not named Dol Amroth until the death of Amroth, Christopher Tolkien thinks it's more likely that two distinct traditions existed for the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth.

If so the question becomes, two traditions within Middle-earth? Or two external versions, but one intended tradition, in other words, Tolkien merely revising one to the other as he creates "the" tradition. We can't know at this point, but we know that Amroth and Nimrodel were not lost until one thousand nine hundred and eighty years had passed in the Third Age.

My opinion is that Tolkien was still working on the history of Dol Amroth, although obviously the legend of Elvish blood had been introduced in print, and has its romantic appeal in my opinion. I sometimes think the appeal -- perhaps more so than even believing that Legolas himself could not be fooled -- is the great attraction to believe this legend. I know I'm drawn to believe it, but my "devil's advocate" above is to underline that it's not presented as a certain fact (not that anyone said it was), and purposely so I would say; even Tolken's giving the legend "details" need not mean there is certainty, as plenty of legends have plenty of details of course, some having various forms with certain inconsistencies between them... which of course by itself does not prove that some main argument [Elvish blood] is false.

Wait... I think I flipped again :-D


Last edited by Elthir on January 29th, 2017, 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 28th, 2017, 10:38 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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lol

Well, it's nice to believe I think. The romanticized version or not, I rather like the idea and it is intriguing to me.

The idea of the elf maidens seems quite possible to me, but that's just the mind of a dreamer. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 28th, 2017, 10:44 pm 
Gondorian
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I like to believe it too Jax... but you know me... give me a chance to ramble :)

I also love the name Mithrellas... I think [?] it might mean "Grey leaf" [mithren + las]


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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 28th, 2017, 11:12 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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Haha, no problem. I quite enjoy your ramblings! Reading/listening to ramblings is one of the ways I learn most of what I know of Middle Earth.

It is quite a nice sounding name. I guess that would make sense, similar to Legolas as green leaf?

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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 29th, 2017, 1:20 pm 
Gondorian
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Yeah, both names ending in -las(s) "leaf"... it would seem... but even the experts who guess at Mithrellas meaning *Grey-leaf caution that this is a guess... while on the other hand we know that Legolas is a Silvan pronunciation of Laegolas, from Sindarin laeg + golas(s) [Letter's of JRRT], "Green foliage", or more simply "Greenleaf" of course.

Tolkien can sometimes surprise folks with what he imagined a name to mean, thus my [?]... but anyway I do like the meaning if it's correct, and certainly the sound.


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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 29th, 2017, 6:43 pm 
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I see, but yes it does have a nice sound to it and a neat meaning if that be the meaning.

It's neat to see how intricate the language is, yet at the same time it is somewhat overwhelming because you can't just take two words, put them together, and come up with a name meaning. (or in reverse) Of course my knowledge is so limited.... it's really not much to speak of.

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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 11:19 am 
Gondorian
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Yes name-making is a bit more complicated, generally speaking, than some folks might think... I mean even in Sindarin (a language that underwent more change over the years [internal years] than Quenya) you can find fairly straight forward compound examples, like Adanedhel, Celeborn, Mithlond, but, as you rightly suggest Jax, there's more to it than (as I call it) just "smashing" words or elements together. I think that even when JRRT constructed a name according to his own principles, if he didn't like the sound of the outcome, he would try a different path. Of course that kind of thing gets subjective when tons of fans get involved.

To drift back toward the topic, here's a statement from Tolkien written in 1954 [draft letter 153]: "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring -- even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil." A footnote to this letter [not JRRT's footnote] states that one would expect 3 cases at this point, given what is said about Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A, but Tolkien might have been thinking of Arwen as Half-elven when he wrote letter 153, given that in a much later letter he states quite straight forwardly that Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the Half-elven.

Or maybe... something else :-D

So Mithrellas [not being an Elda] aside or not, I still think these unions were meant to be rare in Tolkien's world, which I think is touched upon by some of Finrod's words to Andreth: 'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it." JRRT, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Morgoth's Ring.


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 Post subject: Re: Human + Elf (like Tuor & Idril) NOT unique?!
PostPosted: January 30th, 2017, 8:45 pm 
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So, if the elves and men are "One race" why such differences? Did Tolkien ever elaborate on that? I mean, I know from the Silmarilion, they had very different beginnings as totally separate peoples. I don't recall the idea of them being the same race int he Silmarilion but it has been years since I have read that.

*thinks to self that I really need to re-read that book*

Or perhaps is it as simple as, they were created, biologically of the same race but endowed with separate strengths, abilities, and longevity etc...

What of Dwarves? (not to stray too much) but do they or can they cross with elves or humans?

I find it interesting that Finrod found it as some high purpose of Doom... but at the same time I can honestly understand the meaning. Especially given the example of Arwen (Who I agree I have always been under the impression was half human or part human, so it would make sense her and Aragorn would not count in the "two unions" ) I myself, would much rather be the one to die as opposed to the one who lives on indefinitely... that kind of fate after loosing a loved one like that would be worse than death I would think.

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