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 Post subject: No Living Man
PostPosted: October 7th, 2007, 3:32 am 
Maia
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Just a bit of silliness, this is, but you know how the WitchKing says “No living man can kill me”? Obviously that means a woman could, but would the dead have been able to kill the Witchking, as they’re not a living man?

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PostPosted: October 7th, 2007, 12:14 pm 
Istari
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That has actually occured to me... :lol: It's like in Monty Python and the Holy Grail when the Knight of Ni says to King Arthur "If you do not appease us, you shall never pass through this wood ALIVE!" Which always makes me ask, "So he could pass through it DEAD then?" :teehee:

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PostPosted: October 7th, 2007, 2:36 pm 
Vala
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Lol, Nightingale. That's an interesting speculation, but I'm inclined to believe that the dead would have a hard time, at the least, doing so. But there's really no evidence to disprove it, so perhaps it would be possible.

I've always wondered why no elves or dwarves bothered trying to kill him--after all, they're not men, either. The Witch-king didn't say "No living male can kill me, he said "No living man can kill me,[/i] which doesn't include Elves and Dwarves, or hobbits, etc. :D

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PostPosted: October 7th, 2007, 3:16 pm 
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Wow. you all are overanalyzing this. :blink:

It wouldn't sound cool any other way.
Nothing can kill me
No living thing can kill me

Besides, none of those get the cool "I AM NO MAN!" AHHHHHH Jaw-Dropping... wow Eowyn Totally disobeyed her father moment.

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PostPosted: October 7th, 2007, 3:41 pm 
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Lol, Smeagollum. :D Granted, nothing else would sound as cool, but it's still fun to explore all of the loopholes...:P

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PostPosted: October 8th, 2007, 6:41 am 
Maia
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One thing I didn't remember until now... reading the appendix, I can't remember which one it's in, but they mentioned something about someone saying something after a battle in which the WitchKing escaped, he basically prophesied that "the Witchking would be killed, but not by a man."

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PostPosted: October 8th, 2007, 9:19 am 
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You are right, Smeagollum...but you know what, Nightingale, that would be a great idea for a parody!

Witch king: FOOL! NO LIVING MAN MAY KILL ME!

Eowyn: Right...so a dead man can kill you?

Witch king: Huh? Oh...oops. FOOL! NO MAN MAY...

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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2007, 2:56 pm 


Well that would make sense to me o.o;; Heh heh girls pwn! >>;;

But yeah I mean if no living man can kill him it n=must mean that one of his own could kill him, imagine if that actually happened? o.o;;

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 Post subject: No Living Man
PostPosted: October 22nd, 2007, 11:24 pm 
Gondorian
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Éowyn sword killed the Witch King, no doubt about that, but Merry had a Númenorean blade, and more importantly, a blade of the North-kingdom which was made partly with magic (Merry would call it magic anyway) against the dread realm of Angmar, ruled by the Witch-king.

Remember the words in RotK:
"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of the Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his undead sinews to his will."

So obviously it was Merry’s blow that allowed Éowyn to kill the Witch King. As for his words, "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"? Could another men or an elves or dwarves have killed him?

I think the Witch King was full of himself! If you lived more than a millennium, had a very high rank, and were invisible, you would think you were hot stuff too. Anyone there could have killed him—after Merry poked him, of course.

The Nightingale wrote:
...but would the dead have been able to kill the Witchking, as they’re not a living man?


I think it is interesting that it says, "...cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his undead sinews to his will."
Unless I am mistaken the Witch King had it over on any ordinary soldier you might find in the army of the dead. He was dead too, or should have been but for the magic ring of power that obviously could only be neutralized by magic (or power) of greater strength.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2007, 4:51 am 
Maia
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^ A lot of good points, Sinbearer!

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 Post subject: One short sleep past....
PostPosted: October 23rd, 2007, 2:24 pm 
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I got to thinking about what I said in my last post, “He was dead too, or should have been but for the magic ring of power…” Or should have been. Hmmmm. I think it is very apropriate that Tolkien describes the Witch King as being undead for something was alive in him that should have died. It was incredibly misguided of men to wish for power so greedily that they should desire to hold on to the pride of life and attempt to link their soul eternally to the evil of this world—to linger in a netherworld of horror.

Fulton Sheen, a brilliant and renowned Catholic Archbishop of Tolkien's time, said, “Each of us comes into life with fists closed, set for aggressiveness and acquisition. But when we abandon life our hands are open; there is nothing on earth that we need, nothing the soul can take with it.”

No power—no acquisition—nothing. The Witch King’s only hope, and ours, is to destroy the ring of power and all that that metaphorically symbolizes—to die. This is something no one else can do for us, we must do it—and if we do not find a way, no one will. To refuse to do this is to ruin our soul. If we do not hinder ourselves to our betterment then we WILL be hindered to our ruin, enlarged egos not withstanding.

As I thought about this, it really gave new meaning to an old poem by John Donne:
Quote:
DEATH be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadfull, for, thou art not so,
For, those, whom thou think'st, thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poore death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleepe, which but thy pictures bee,
Much pleasure, then from thee, much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee doe goe,
Rest of their bones, and soules deliverie.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell,
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better then thy stroake; why swell'st thou then;
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 28th, 2007, 10:24 pm 
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Wow Sinbearer, you're amazing. ;)

The idea of an undead person killing the Witch King intrigues me. I wonder why that word "living" was necessary at all... From what you've all said above, it seems like both Merry and Eowyn had pretty equal parts in the killing of the Witch King. And Merry wasn't a man afterall, he was a hobbit. So perhaps that points towards a non-human being able to kill the Witch King? But then, his sword was Numenorian, made by men. So why would that blade, forged by the men that supposedly can't kill the Witch King, have such an effect on him? But the makers aren't alive anymore, so their blades could kill him because the men aren't living anymore?

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PostPosted: October 29th, 2007, 12:03 pm 
Vala
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The Nightingale wrote:
One thing I didn't remember until now... reading the appendix, I can't remember which one it's in, but they mentioned something about someone saying something after a battle in which the WitchKing escaped, he basically prophesied that "the Witchking would be killed, but not by a man."


That was Glorfindel, Night--he said "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall" to Eärnur.

I think that a Sinbearer fanclub should be started, for all of those who think that your posts are profound and amazingly concise and eloquent, Sinbearer. :D

I think that all of the Nazgûl were full of folly for being so desirous of power that they even sacrificed death in order to gain it and immortal life, at such a dreadful price. Servants to Sauron, for as long as the One Ring was in existence. How terrible. In fact, even the Ringwraiths deserve some pity, odd though it may sound. Blinded by their own greed, they grasped eagerly at a chance for immortal life and great power only to find out afterwards what the cost was. I don't know that any of them would have chosen it knowing what the price was, but I'm sure that regardless of their feelings upon entering into their bargain with Sauron were vastly different and more positive than their feelings by the time Sauron was destroyed.

That's an interesting point to raise, Sinbearer--that perhaps Merry's strike made the Witch-king vulnerable to all, even living men. I'll have to think about that.

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 Post subject: The power of light....
PostPosted: October 29th, 2007, 3:48 pm 
Gondorian
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Iritarimel Noramírë wrote:
...So why would that blade, forged by the men that supposedly can't kill the Witch King, have such an effect on him?


Besides what I have mentioned above, Tolkien writes in The Hunt for the Ring that at Weathertop Frodo "had dared to strike at him (the Witch King) with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction", and that a wound from a barrow blade "would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife [sic] to Frodo (as was proved in the end)".

So I think there is no doubt that the Numenorean blades were magical. What doesn’t seem to make sense is that Tolkien makes the statement in Letter #155 that "'magic' in this story... is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such." So it seems that the magic here must have been accomplished through their contact with powers outside of themselves. In Tolkien’s tales men were never left without help and guidance from powers greater than themselves.

The reason why magic or supernatural power was dangerous for men was not because it was inherently evil. It was because Eru hadn’t granted mankind any such powers. Wizards, Valar, Elves did have powers that men saw as supernatural – though no doubt those who wield such power think their powers rather commonplace and perfectly natural for the dimension they inhabit.

But in man’s dimension, the only ways he could tap the supernatural is through help from outside of himself—to trust in help sent from Eru—or to try to grab the power for himself through the darkened power of Sauron (A prideful shortcut to trusting in Eru). The trouble was that the latter way ended up enslaving them to the malevolent will of Sauron as we see even happened to a wizard. The power (or magic) they try to grab for themselves really isn’t theirs and neither can they control it so they end up a hostage of the being who innately possesses those powers.

In the end, the eternal reality is that light is forever stronger than the Shadow just as faith is stronger than fear. Sam realized this on the slopes of Mordor “…For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing; there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach". Consequently, the shadow is ever at risk of coming in contact with light. If that should happen to any creature in a darkened state, he could discinigrate as the light of a candle shatters the darkness or the light of the sun dazzles eyes who have not become accustomed to it.

It is no wonder to me that the wraiths—men who had embraced darkness and fear—could die by coming into contact with a object that had been permeated with the brightness of eternal light (or magic if you will) that really symbolizes faith and hope.

Iritarimel Noramírë wrote:
...But the makers aren't alive anymore, so their blades could kill him because the men aren't living anymore?


What strikes me about your question here is that there is power in the faith and legend of those who have gone before us—power that those alive today do not have. Look at the dying words of Theoden, “I go to my fathers, in whose mighty company I shall not now be ashamed.” There is power to destroy darkness in the faithful witness of our forefathers. That of course begs the question, “Will those who come behind me find me faithful?”

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 29th, 2007, 5:31 pm 
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I agree with Aerandir--Sinbearer, your posts are pretty much amazing!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 31st, 2007, 3:50 pm 
Vala
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Oooh, interesting post, Sinbearer. I envy you for having read The Hunt for the Ring. :P

That's a very interesting point of view on the 'magic' of Middle-earth. It's the first time I've seen it like that--I've read variations of it, but nothing quite so specific. At least, when it comes to light vs. dark.

I certainly hope I'm remembered as being faithful. :confused:

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