gee, wow! I wouldn't call (some of) that a Mary-Sue at all! I don't think Elizabeth's perfect like that... she gets dirty and in the Final Battle in AWE she doesn't ward of entire legions (although I know that was just an example)... she can't even stand up against Davy Jones and she needs Will's (and Jack's) help.... and even in the battle on the beach in DMC she has help fighting and she's still struggling... and I don't know about the looking perfect after battle part but sometimes she really doesn't.
I guess to me Elizabeth is pretty much just a normal girl with her own flaws.... she's no superwoman or anything....

and all those things that were listed out are what make Elizabeth, Elizabeth. that doesn't make her a Mary-Sue but it makes her just a (almost ) normal woman of the 1700's..... no offence but I guess I personally I think that just makes her unique.



Oh, on the contrary (IMO) I believe Will gained even more heroicness. I can't really remember when he betrays his friends. He and Jack were always loyal to each other... Jack forgave Will when he tried to steal the Pearl and they planned together on how to get Jack over to the Flying Dutchman to stab Davy's heart. Will never ever betrayed Jack there and it only showed that they both did (somewhat) care about what the other wanted and they both were together in the whole "lead the pirates out to battle and face Beckett thing"... but both of them knew what they had planned to happen was Jack to get over to the Dutchman, stab the heart and have it all over with before the battle. and Will never betrayed Elizabeth (IMO) either. He was actually very loyal to her and he did his best to mostly work things out and get her with Jack if that's what she wanted... he never wanted to leave her or anything... (almost) all he ever wanted was her or at least her to be happy. And in the end he stretched himself as far as he could in order to be heroic and help everyone even if it meant he'd have to give up his life.... I mean he freed his father AND he got to save Elizabeth from getting beat and killed by Jones. So on the contrary to me I think Will only gained more heroicness than before because he put himself out there and stretched himself to the limit always thinking of others....
But we could go on forever debating like this… so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, aye?

_________________
Chase a couple hearts, we could leave 'em in shreds
Meet me in the gutter, make the devil your friend
Just remember what I said, cause it isn't over yet

Get.Lost.In.The.Dark.To.Find.Yourself
-sig by Loafers-

Wow. I thought this thread was dead and buried and done with ages ago. I've no interest in bringing back up what's already been discussed, but as my definition of a Mary Sue is being brought back into the debate, allow me to clarify:

I was not calling Elizabeth a Sue in a negative sense. Rather, I was simply pointing out that an original fanfiction character with the same qualities would be labeled a Sue. We were debating the different qualities of the characters, and so I brought that up as another topic for discussion. Elizabeth is one of my favorite characters, and I criticize her no more or less than I do any other.

Furthermore, I was more specifically referring to the first half of the trilogy (CotBP and the first part of DMC). In that part, Elizabeth does have some decidedly Sue-like qualities, and that is part of what makes her growth as a character so significant. She starts out as this beautiful, "perfect" young woman, like so many others, and yet by the end of DMC we have discovered that she's actually quite selfish, to the point of being willing to murder a "friend" to save herself and the man she loves. And, more importantly, Elizabeth has discovered this. A significant part of Elizabeth's character arc is learning that perhaps she's not quite as moral as she would like to think, and then reconciling this altered image with the person she always wanted to become. By AWE, I will wholeheartedly agree that Elizabeth is not a Sue. She is a strong young woman with very real flaws and emotions. It just takes a while for that aspect of her character to become readily evident.

^ok, thanks for clearing that up, PotR... now that doesn't make it sound nearly as bad as what I thought it was meant to be (and it sounds about like Elizabeth)... I'm happy to hear you meant it all in a good way and you enjoy Elizabeth too.... once again thanks (and I'm sorry for misinterpreting you).

_________________
Chase a couple hearts, we could leave 'em in shreds
Meet me in the gutter, make the devil your friend
Just remember what I said, cause it isn't over yet

Get.Lost.In.The.Dark.To.Find.Yourself
-sig by Loafers-

Sorry. I didn't mean to bing you back into the dicussion... Just, well, I didn't feel like typing it all up myself so...



Aye! I respect you opinions, PD. If you really enjoy these movies, and these characters, then that's great. I wouldn't want to take that from you, or be so negitive as to make you depressed...

Oh, man, I wish I could watch potc, even if it isn't good at least I'd know!

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~Follower of Christ~

~Extreme Evanescent~

~Claimed Elladan July 03, 2007~ :3

thank you, TheThain! And I totally respect your opinions too.... I mean, hey, if you think of Pirates as just fun then go ahead, we've each shared our opinions... it's all good. we have to move past those differences and move on, aye?
and thanks for saying that.... it really means a lot. we all hate being depressed, right? thanks!

P.S and I did want to tell you that I think your Eowyn and Faramir banners are amazing!

_________________
Chase a couple hearts, we could leave 'em in shreds
Meet me in the gutter, make the devil your friend
Just remember what I said, cause it isn't over yet

Get.Lost.In.The.Dark.To.Find.Yourself
-sig by Loafers-

You're welcome! I enjoy discussing things (especially movies and books ). But I have been told by quite a few people that I'm too critical, or two negative. So, yeah. Sorry if that kinda rubbed off... Anyhow, we both love potc (Gosh, I just wrote "potr" ). So there's nothing more to say.

ps. Thank you! I wish I could take credit for it, but a few of AU's amazing graphics makers did all the work, so I don't think that would be right.

I do too.... well, I don't know if you're too critical (and I think that may be one of my downfalls too also I can get really defensive sometimes). Anyway, having strong opinions on some things (not necessarily movies though ) can be really good sometimes. It means you won't be swayed easily when it really counts.
Oh, no you're ok... you didn't bring Pirates down or say it was dumb or anything.... and that's what really gets me depressed (I totally know not everyone likes Will or Lizzie... although I'll never really get why but that's beside the point).
yup, you're right.

you're welcome.... well, whether you made them or no they're still very nice. Eowyn and Faramir are my fave couple right after Will and Elizabeth and Aragorn and Arwen. They're sweet together, aren't they?

_________________
Chase a couple hearts, we could leave 'em in shreds
Meet me in the gutter, make the devil your friend
Just remember what I said, cause it isn't over yet

Get.Lost.In.The.Dark.To.Find.Yourself
-sig by Loafers-

They are really sweet together! That's got to be (perhaps) my only big complant about the movies, they just didn't have enough of them together. Then again, they picked a really good actor/actress to play the part, so I'm satisfied! (Can you imagine Faramir with black hair?)

I know! I would've loved to see as much of them in the movies as was in the books.... and really it wouldn't have made RotK much longer if they had just added in the scenes that were in the EE...
you're very right! PJ (and the rest) did an awesome job casting the actors/actresses! They're all just how I would imagine them to be... (although that might be partly because of seeing the movies before reading the books )

_________________
Chase a couple hearts, we could leave 'em in shreds
Meet me in the gutter, make the devil your friend
Just remember what I said, cause it isn't over yet

Get.Lost.In.The.Dark.To.Find.Yourself
-sig by Loafers-

[quote=]Captiain Typhoo from Star Wars is a brand of tea?
[/quote]


Who is Captain Typhoo?

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Strengh is not measured by weapons

[quote=]
Elizabeth is pretty much a Mary-Sue. And, by that definition, so are Eowyn, Arwen (in the films), Princess Leia, Padme, and Arya, to name a few

.[/quote]

Liza is not a Mary-Sue,nor either Leia,or Padme,or Arwen or Eowyn.
We know each of them has got their own flaws(by reading the books/watching the fimls)and after all they went trough:
(Liza's mixed feelings with Jack and Will and losing her father and Will and saying goodbye to the crew,Leia looses the father she never knew and the shock of the discovery of her brother,besides sometime in a difficult choice between Han and Luke,and looses Han(for a short while),besides the fact that an enormous fat ugly slug rapes her... and Padme,well,she is the girl less to someone call her Mary-Sue,Ok,the first 2 films she is alright,but then she is pregnant,and knows that Anakin is in trouble and wants to help him,but at the same time she wants to help the galaxy(can't remember)to avoid the war,but she can't do much ,cause she is pregnant,and then she knows that Anakin has turned to the dark side but she was the only one whom believed there was good in Vader!And just before she dies,giving birth to the twins,sad,just sad and terrible.
And now Arwen,well yes in the movies she is a bit overrated,but still,..she looses her mother at early age(for elf terms)and later she founds hapiness with Aragorn,but she is an elf,he a human,and altough it's a very hard choice,she stays with her love and becomes mortal,for it she 'll never see her parents,brothers,grandpas ever again,and even if they(ar and ara)have a kingdom to rule and many children,many years later Aragorn dies,and poor Arwen mourns over a year,until she dies alone,too,and last but not least,it's Eowyn,she turns into an orphan at 7,years later living with her brother,uncle,cousin,she is unhappy,she wants to fight instead of staying there doing nothing,and later her uncle only listens to Grima( whom he works for Saruman)and doesn't listen to anybody,Rohan is under attack and can't nothing to save her country and her people,her cousin dies,her brother is sent to jail and Wormtongue is all day stalking her and seducing her,it's all terrible for the poor girl,and then she finds a bit of hope(and love) when she meets Aragorn,but later she knows she's not that girl andlater,hopeless and suicidal she rides to war,disguised as a boy,but to find death and glory in battle,but no,instead,her uncle dies in the battle and she is severally wounded,but she still is cold and depressed,so she wants to fight in the Black Gate to help her brother Eomer,his only living family,but at last of all she finds love and wisdom with Faramir)someone goes and calls them Mary-Sue?

Dude,that's just wrong
(I don't know many things of Arya,cause im not too much into Eragon,but I'm sure she isn't a Mary-Sue).

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Strengh is not measured by weapons

Also,they are flawless:they are the most beautifull,the best fighter,the smartest,and always the main characters of such story in which she appears.

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Strengh is not measured by weapons

You see,I can even relate Elphaba(Wicked) to those terms:

Elphaba
-Father is the governor/priest of Munchkinland,and later,sister is Eminent Thropp(like a queen)of Munchkinland
-Looses her mother at a young age,after Shell is born
-She seems to follow the orders of Mad.Morrible,and her father's predictions,but doesn't like it
-Fiercely independent young woman capable of thinking for herself
-Very intelligent
-Very beautiful(despite she's green;in a exotic way)
-Despite being of noble descendance,is very gifted with witchcraft
-Is part of a mayor love triangle (musical Glinda/Fiyero/Elphaba and book Sarima/Fiyero/Elphaba)
-Disguises herself sometimes as a male so she can attemp to kill the wizard/ join in the fight
-Despise being a well-known person and obiously female,manages to fool everyone,even someone who knows her well.

So you see,Elphaba has many of those cualities,is she a Mary-Sue too?

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Strengh is not measured by weapons

Exactly,that's a Mary-Sue.

Honestly,the best definition of Mary-Sue(important girls in stories,flawless and loved by everyone) is a Barbie.

Or a Bratz,for the matter,or even a MyScene!

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Strengh is not measured by weapons

Well,I already had defended Leia and Padme(and Arya),but I think it's a bit true that Buttercup have a Mary-Sueish tendency.(The part in the movie when she says all the time ''My Wesly is going to come for me'' and she doesn't do anything is so annoying!.
The movie made her too much like a lovesick puppy.
The Disney princesses,well,they're made for kids,little kids,and they don't have a clue about Mary-Sues,RPG,Fan Fiction and such(only very smart kids).
Yeah,people likes to put copycats-Eowyns,or such.
I am included.

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Strengh is not measured by weapons