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Post subject: Etiquette, norms and behaviour in Miss Jane Austen's time  Posted: April 9th, 2009, 12:22 pm |
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Eä |
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Like the title says, I would like to discuss and ask questions about the social interaction in Jane Austen's England. I have read a couple of her books and seen movies and TV-series and there is always at least one thing I find myself wonder about when I go back in time and enter the old-ish England.
I've just seen Sense & Sensibility, the 1995 movie, and I was wondering about the 'title' of Miss Dashwood. There are three daughters so shouldn't they all be Miss Dashwood? But it seems they refer mostly to Elinor as Miss Dashwood and to the next daughter as Miss Marianne and Margaret as... simply.. Margaret? So do you become a "Miss" when you reach a certain age or are they all entitled to the Miss Dashwood title? Like the Ferrars brothers. In the end they all believe Edward has married because of the name-confusion.
Anothr question I have asked before elsewhere. Isn't Col. Brandon way too old for Marianne? I just can't believe in a romance not to say marriage between the two (portrayed by Alan Rickman and Kate Winslet) would ever be happy. I mean it seems so.. well, not rushed.. but like "I'll just settle with whom I can get!" Most of Jane Austen's mothers seem a little too eager to marry off their daughters for title and wealth over happiness. But I guess that was normal at that time.
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Post subject: Posted: April 9th, 2009, 1:01 pm |
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I believe the "Miss Dashwood" might be according to their age.Perhaps because Marianne was a bit younger,she might not be by her last name yet.And Margaret,as a child,would still be called by her first name.
I read somewhere that at a certain age,before a girl had her "coming out",she was a child,and therefore,wouldn't be addressed by her last name.  _________________ 
^thanks Aliana
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Post subject: Posted: April 9th, 2009, 1:09 pm |
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I believe it is to do with age. The eldest sister will retain the family name - Miss. Dashwood. The youngest are referred to by their Christian names - Miss. Marianne and Miss. Margaret (I believe she was called Miss a few times). I also think that when the older sister marries, the name Miss. Dashwood would then pass onto the second youngest unmarried sister. I'm not sure at what age they become "Miss", because I have seen films set in the same era with children and they have been called "Master Thomas" or "Miss Anna", and they were quite young.
It's a way of addressing people which is still used today in some parts of Britain I am sure. I know I have seen films set in the 60's where sisters have been called that, and I'm sure in little rural villages over here, it would still be like that.
No, I don't think he is really. I think he was 18 years older than her? I don't think that's too old in this day and age, but back then it didn't really matter.
I think if an older man was wealthy, then it was considered a very good match to have a mature man as a husband. Someone who had made his fortune and was settled in life, and not someone who was trying to make his way in the world and would have a wife to try and take care of at the same time.
I think their romance was very believable, because she learnt that love was not about driving around in carriages and being with someone who flirted all the time. But that sometimes love is more quiet and constant. Even though Marianne had no money, Brandon would never have changed his mind because of that, unlike Willoughby. And I also think Marianne grew up after the Willoughby incident and began to realise that the type of love she wanted and needed, was what Brandon could and would provide. I think it's a timeless tale of not realising your true love when it's right in front of you.
It was normal at the time, for families to hope for a good match for at least one of their children if they were of a lower rank, or a high rank but with little money. It was not just a question of money, but also the fact they could climb up the social ladder and attend things they would never have done before. However, I'm sure a lot of these marriages would also have been built upon love at the same time, as I think family or no family, some of the women (and men) would have had their own idea of what they wanted in a spouse and would have wanted to choose their own.
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^ By me and my SS *squiggle hugs*
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Post subject: Posted: April 9th, 2009, 2:16 pm |
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I sort of had the idea that they all were Miss Dashwood, unless you had to distinguish which one you were talking about, in which case it stayed Miss Dashwood for Elinor but became Miss Marianne for Marianne. Margaret was not of marrying age and so she was still referred to as just plain Margaret.
It was fairly common for a girl to marry an older man up to almost the mid-20th century. Since upper rank women didn't work and working women were paid less than half of what men made they had to live off either their parents' income or their husband's income. If your parents couldn't afford you, you had to get married quickly and early, especially if you had younger siblings your parents also needed to support. Men, on the other hand, could make enough money to be independent, and so didn't need to get married as quickly. What's more, I think the mortality rate for women was so high because of childbirth that a man's first wife could die, but he could still marry a young second wife.
Again, because women had no other way of making substantial money, it was desirable to have a rich husband, even if you didn't love him. Marriage back then was viewed much more as a contract than a declaration of love, at least, I think, to women. Men might of been able to (literally) afford to see it differently.
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Post subject: Posted: April 9th, 2009, 2:31 pm |
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It makes sense with the Miss Dashwood explanation and that the oldest un-married son or daughter would have the family name. I also imagined that young girls would become "Miss" when they were old enough to 'came out', but I suppose it varies and depends on who is addressing them. Also, wouldn't lower ranking people address members of superior families 'master' or 'miss' even if they were younger? But really, it's confusing..
Gimli:: What do you mean? Would people still go about addressing people Miss [insert Christian name here]?
I completely agree with your observation on what kind of men would make a good match and in that sense Col. Brandon is a perfect match. (And he IS Alan Rickman after all.  ). Since I haven't read S&S (shame on me, I know it!) I can't say anything about Marianne's book character but in the movie I never got the impression that she is that shallow so she would care much for fancy carriages and rank. In the movie she is young and she does long for the romantic - in the most literal sense - the wild and passionate love, but as you say she grows and learns from life and from her 'mistakes' when Willoughby leaves her.
Taur:: First of all, good to see you! 
Who wouldn't marry for money - if the bachelor was Mr. Darcy! No seriously, I have a difficult time imagining this class-defined society but class and rank seem to mean everything, who you see and talk to, what balls you go to and that privileges you have. I think if my choice in husbands were limited I might end up marrying for money and rank over love - I mean as long as the man was at least agreeable! _________________ >>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
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Post subject: Posted: April 9th, 2009, 2:58 pm |
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Servants would address children as Master/Miss *first name* and then the husband and wife would be Mistress and Master. I don't think they would be on first name terms, unless they were more part of the family than servants.
Do you mean addressing people today? Or back then? Because the way I see it, today, is it is polite to call people you don't really know as Mr/Mrs/Miss. First name familiaty should come when you know them better or you are asked to use their first name (the way I was brought up anyway). So if you are introduced to "The Brown Sisters", you would be introduced to "Miss. Brown" and "Miss. Lucy".
No, I don't think she was either. But she was completely whisked away by the way Willoughby conducted himself, the way he showed the world how he felt and the fact he was so alive, if you know what I mean. But I think she later understood that just because someone is more quiet and sedate, doesn't mean that that person doesn't love. It's just a different way of expressing your feelings.
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Post subject: Posted: April 9th, 2009, 4:21 pm |
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You would be introduced to the Brown sisters even still today??? Man, I love England!!! So you would be Miss Gimli? Squeee. 
I've always been wondering how people passed the time back then. The people who didn't work, they always seem to just play on the pianoforte or recite poetry or read books. I can't imagine life at that time. The days must have been long and the evenings even longer... _________________ >>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
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Post subject: Posted: April 9th, 2009, 5:02 pm |
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I think you would in certain circles, yes. 
Back to the name business. Here is a passge I have found in my book Jane Austen: The World of Her Novels.
Even within the family, modes of address were very formal, and husbands and wives - in public at least - spoke, and referred to each other as "Mr. Bennet" or "Mrs. Bennet"; while children called their parents "Sir" and "Ma'am" as well as "Papa" and "Mama". Outisde the family, Christian names were used to distinguish younger brothers and sisters: Tom is "Mr. Betram" as he is the elder son, and "Mr. Edmund Bertram" idicates that he is younger - likewise "Miss Betram" and "Miss Julia Betram". To address or refer to some unrelated person by their Christian name alone signified either that the person was a child or an inferior, or else that the speaker was over-familiar or vulgar. Even engaged couples hesitated at first to use each other's Christian names. Frank Churchill (Emma) much resents the way Mrs. Elton calls his fiancee "Jane". In the 1790's it was permissable to call or refer to a man by his surname alone, as "Willoughby" or "Bingley", but twenty years later Mrs. Elton use of "Knightley" is considered as vulgarity.
And I also have information on what careers women could have, what entertainment there was and also pastimes, which I shall write up sometimes tonight.
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Post subject: Posted: April 10th, 2009, 10:53 am |
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Thank you, it describes exactly the topic we've been talking about. But it's really interesting hos quickly it changes, the use of surname or surname alone. Also they constantly talk about fashion in Jane Austen's novels, what a stress to keep up with the l'latest from london' all the time! But then again it might be one of the pastimes! I'm looking forward to learn more from your Bible!
I just watched Mansfield Park. I have never read the book and I'm not sure how I liked it... Anyway the were riding a lot and I was wondering if a lady would always ride a side-saddle or it would be okay for her to ride with a leg on each side of the horse? I'm extremely impressed by the women's riding skills, it must be so much harder to ride a side-saddle!
Also I found this about manners and customs http://chuma.usf.edu/~runge/MasonJA1.html_________________ >>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
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Post subject: Posted: April 10th, 2009, 11:28 am |
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Yes, it was interesting to see how things had changed in 20 years. It had never occured to me that Mrs. Elton calling him "Knightley" was seen as vulgar, I just thought Emma had a problem with it because it was an over-familiar way of speaking about him, and she was jealous.
Ladies up until the last century or so, were supposed to ride side saddle, I presume, because of the way the legs were positioned it was considered un-ladylike.
Back to your previous question.... first off books and papers.
For more private entertainment there were always books and newspapers to read, although in both cases they were not so freely available as they are today. Books were expensive - in 1816 "Emma" cost a guinea, which was the weekly salary upon which a poor curate might have to keep himself and his family - and commerical libraries would solicit subscribers whose payments went towards maintaining a contant supply of new books of all kinds.
Private book clubs were also set up, whereby a group of friends would subscribe to buy books spefically requested by members of the club, amongst whom they would be distributed at the end of the year. The normal practice was for a book to be published in several volumes so that different members of the family could all read it at the same time - hence at Netherfield, Miss. Bingley, trying to attract Mr. Darcy's attention, chooses a book only because it is the second volume of the one he was reading.
Many of the characters in Jane Austen't novels read constantly and intelligently; Mr. Darcy continues to add to his own library at Pemberley, which has been accumulated over several generations.
Newspapers were very small - four pages of minute type - and expensive, and were issued weekly or twice-weekly, initially it was only the "Daily Universal Register" (later renamed "The Times"), which appeared every day. Jane seems to think that newspapers were more the province of the gentlemen than the lady, perhaps because they printed mostly political and commercial news and ladies were not supposed to be interested in uch matters - though Ann Elliot follows the fortunes of Admiral Croft and Captain Wentworth by dint of studying the naval reports. London papers were sent down to the country, and it was a generous kindness on the part of the subsciber to pass his paper on to the neighbours when he had finished with it.
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Post subject: Posted: April 10th, 2009, 12:40 pm |
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Yeah, I had the impression also that only Emma really had a problem with the Knightley thing because she was so... insufferable! You know my opinion of Emma... 
I didn't know books were so expensive. I'm trying to imagine what they would cost today then. It shows how wealthy the Darcys must have been.
Generally, there must have been such a difference between rich and poor, higher classes and lower classes. Imagine having servants around to do all the dirty work so all you were left to do was decidding the menu and calling on friends and neighbours in those fancy dresses! How very pleasant!
Would you like to live as one of Jane Austen's heroines? _________________ >>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
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Post subject: Posted: April 10th, 2009, 1:21 pm |
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Post subject: Posted: April 21st, 2009, 11:01 pm |
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Eä wrote: Taur:: First of all, good to see you! Who wouldn't marry for money - if the bachelor was Mr. Darcy! No seriously, I have a difficult time imagining this class-defined society but class and rank seem to mean everything, who you see and talk to, what balls you go to and that privileges you have. I think if my choice in husbands were limited I might end up marrying for money and rank over love - I mean as long as the man was at least agreeable! You too, Ea!
I certainly would! It is a bit strange, and you kind of wonder what their overall goal in life was. "Go to a ball at Buckingham Palace"?  But I think it was more because your value as a person and esteem among your peers seemed directly proportional to how much money you had. Like in P&P, Mr. Bingley and Mr. Darcy got instant respect, even though they had done nothing to earn it rather than be very rich. 
True, I think it was a very real decision if you were a young lady in Jane Austen's time.  "Do I marry the man I love even though he doesn't have a lot of money, or do I marry that man I like who does?" _________________
Last edited by Taurquende on April 22nd, 2009, 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Posted: April 22nd, 2009, 12:13 am |
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I have a question - my mom and I have talked about this before, but I haven't found an answer yet What did men like Mr. Darcy do to become rich? You hear about them having all this money, and going away on business, but what was their business?
It would be interesting to live in those times. I'm sure how much I would like it... I'm not a very social person - I'd Mary Bennet instead of an Elizabeth or Jane
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Post subject: Posted: April 24th, 2009, 2:36 am |
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Good question, Elenya. I've wondered that a lot, too. They were born into money, obviously, but I don't exactly know how they keep the income. I think because they owned huge tracts of land, they had a lot of tenants who paid them in order to live and hold farms there. (Wasn't Mr. Martin from "Emma" a tenant of Mr. Knightley?) I guess their business trips would be about their investments, or to see their banker or accountant.  _________________
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Post subject: Posted: May 19th, 2009, 11:52 pm |
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Eä wrote: Would you like to live as one of Jane Austen's heroines?
No.
I love Jane Austen's books; I love the world that her heroines get to live in, from the intrigue to the balls to the dashing heroes and exciting romances.
But when I think about the real life situations of the late 1700s-early 1800s...
No. Women had pretty much no rights whatsoever. They couldn't support themselves; marriage was virtually their only choice. I couldn't stand that. You would have to be very lucky for a Mr. Darcy to come along at just the right time, and I wouldn't want to gamble my life's happiness on that.
Not to mention things like medicine (death by childbirth...agh,) politics, a lack of convenient modern technologies (hooray, indoor plumbing... )
Yeah, I'm going to pass.
(To quote Elizabeth Bennet: Only the deepest love could persuade me to matrimony. ) _________________ <center> all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us
Thank you for five-plus wonderful years of obsession, friendship and fun
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