You know... what is it in your opinion that makes a fantasy tale truly epic in proportions?

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Not sure actually, I'm not reading as much fantasy as I used to, but you mentioned the word epic, and I believe most tales can be epic if they include certain characteristics; The classic battle versus good and evil first of all personified in the good guys in opposition to the evil Dark Lord of Doom who is threatening to take over the entire world, simply because he wants the power. We, as readers, need to be driven to the edge of despair along with the characters. There must be either inner doubt within the protagonist of whether his way is the truth and possibly disagreement between the good guys because they are abouit to get astray and tricked by the enemy.
Hmm.... there can be themes of love, friendship, hope, inner struggle and doubt. Feelings and emotions that mirror everything it takes to be human and to live. When we read an epic we will recognize these feelings and perhaps identify with the characters and possibly find solutions to own problems...

Are you writing an epic LDM?

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Right. One of thw things I look for is an interesting way to do magic. Like the Weave in The braided path series. I do not like wands one bit. Another thing I don't like is connecting out world with a fantasy world, its no longer orginal and is starting to bore me. I also like the line between Good and Evil to be blurred, so theres no definate heroes or villians, to make it more interesing.

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"Are you writing an epic LDM?"

>_>;
in MY opinion... she is... but then again, that's my opinion...

i mean, of COURSE she's not writing one! that's why she's got 12 books already written! *she hasn't btw*

i dunno wha makes it an epic... i just... i dunno... read it.

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Actually I am... or at least I hope I am. That's why I created this topic.

Ea, I like how you worded it. I definitely agree with the present themes that also play into humanity. Another aspect I like in an epic is the little band of heroes. Unlikely heroes able to fend for themselves that weren't looking to save the world but somehow got stuck with it and ended up saving the world anyway. Classic example is the Fellowship, but excluding the hobbits. Someone's going to murder me for this, but I thought the nice and innocent and helpless hobbits were annoying.

I also agree with Kess about the lines of good and evil not so clearly drawn out. I know fantasy worlds are what we WISH the world could be, with things in black and white, a clear enemy, and solid evidence that gods exist. But it's not that way in real life, so why should it be in fantasy?

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that line i posted was pure sarcasm... btw...
just to letcha know

yea, because *is agreeing with you* it's relly not like that in real life, and some ppl like to rhave somethign they can actually relate to...
but some ppl might read just to get to a different, happy world...
hm...
but ...i didn't mind the hobbits... but i dont like helpless, stupid, or otherwise limited main charries... AKA folk heroes. *dont ask, we were studying it at the beginning of the year at school*

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not the hobbits! But you're right. I hate goody-goody heroes.

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Actually, I'm not crazy about epics. They tend to get too...grandiose, especially if the good is flawless and the evil is evil all the way into the depths of his black heart. It tends to draw too much on clichés... but also is very hard to avoid in epics...

By the way, why didn't you like the hobbits? I agree that the concept of an anti-hero can be annoying, but somehow I'm afraid that's a crucial part of an epic. We can identify with the anti-hero, the even the smallest person can change the course of the future-concept. We can all be heroes, we don't need to be born into a century long noble bloodline with sword in hand to accomplish something. I think that's what appeals to the reader... so if you want to write a bestseller, you gotta please the crowd!! lol

Alright, my first post deals mostly with epics, but for writing a good fantasy the writer must be original, creative and imaginative. It is impossible not to draw on things that have already been told or written, but to try to come up with something new in the characters or the world they live in.

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Well Lord of the Rings is a perfect example of this, but I think a good fantasy epic has three things: a.) a great setting, b.) well-defined characters, and c.) a really unexpected outcome. When you think about it, all good fantasy novels have those three things.

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Yes, I'm really not fond of modern fantasy. Things that are so over-used in fantasy, every book is now a cliche:
1.) Chosen people
2.) Dragon Riders
3.) Goody-goody princesses
4.) Girls who care about a certain guy more than ANYONE[i.e. Inkspell, Meggie and Farid--over Fenoglio; Flyte, Jenna and Septimus--over Nikko]
4.) Beautiful and kind ANYBODY [that EVERYONE loves, and the antagonist is a jerk for not loving]
5.) Mysterious good guys who look like bad guys when introduced [i.e. Murtagh, Dusfinger, etc.]
6.) Secret hideouts behind waterfalls [Henneth Annun rocks; everyone else copied--sorry that's my Ringer obsession spewing out]
7.) Magical languages that look like the author was just banging on their keyboard [amvi KJgf uarofgedway ignasialaf j fjaae]

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^True, but if you look far enough, there are cliches in every book genre you happen to read. Dragon riders, anti-heroes, true love... they all have a certain romantic sense that seems to appeal to most audiences. Stories are simply written forms of the author's soul, and since humanity in general has so much in common...



Good points. Most epics I notice these days either has an angsty/anti-hero theme or a plot where someone like an uneducated farmer saves the world.

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Things i like in a good Fantasy book/trilogy/set etc.

1.A character thats flawed, no one is perfect, i hat Marty-Sams and Mary-Sue's(gee, Eragon *cough*?).

2.A bit of romance, i love a good romance novel, as long as there's fantasy in it.

3.Magic, but not insane people that have magic all of a sudden, as i see it, you have to work your way into working with magic, you cant just all of a sudden have it(unless it's gifted to you by something/someone)

4.Dragons, yes i know, they're over used, but with a well crafted Dragon, your book could turn out ok, as long as the Dragon has NORMAL wings(without feathers).

5.Swords, i love sword fights, and an expertly written one get my adrenaline going.

6.Hazy lines as to who is truly evil and who is truly good, but make sure you eventualy define whose good and whose bad, i hate it when characters are constanly jumping from one side to another.

I agree mostly with what people have posted already...I guess one of the main things that makes a fantasy book/series capture my interest (besides plain good writing and originality) is there not being a clear, clear line between good and evil. Tolkien goes a little near that, but he's Tolkien - he can pull it off! But when other authors try to have all the heroes dress in shining white and be oh-so-beautiful and kind to everyone and never have more than a passing doubt about anything, and the baddies are hideous monsters who go around wearing black...er...it gets annoying.

Another thing is that while heroes can be shown to be good simply by having them combat the baddies, I think the author needs to show WHY the baddies are baddies. You can't just say "And he was bad. Very bad. So bad he became the Dark Lord. He is now Teh Evul one." You have to show what they've done to make them so terrible, and why the heroes need to take them down.

I personally like to see at least a few strong female characters without their being Mary-Sues (gah! Arya! gah! ). I think the Wheel of Time series did a good job with this, even though the female characters are a little obnoxious sometimes While there should be strong women in the story, it's also annoying when the men are weaklings in comparison...

I like to see new races. Almost nothing is more annoying than having Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, and Humans as the primary races. Surely it can't be that hard to come up with a new race, or at least a new culture. Or at the very least, if you MUST use the stereotypical fantasy races, give them non-stereotypical characteristics. Reinvent the Elf! Make all Dwarves beardless! Or whatever...

Give it scope without it getting too confusing, or seeming like you're adding details for the sake of, well, giving it scope. Just because your world has a huge history in <i>your</i> mind doesn't mean you have to tell the readers all of the history (this is especially annoying when one character [such as the ubiquitous bearded-mentor-wizard-type] decides to relate the entire history), nor does it mean that you have to throw around geographical details unless it's going to be relevant to the story.

I don't always mind this, but be very careful with inventing one or more languages for your world. I always feel like people are trying to rival Tolkien, and it just doesn't work, and oftentimes makes me groan "Can't they just speak English?"

Er...ok...so that got really long, sorry Those are just some of the aspects of fantasy novels that draw me in/annoy me the most when I see them, for what they're worth.

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Or if the females just think of the men that way *coughnynaevecoughchoke*

I pretty much agree with everyone who's posted so far. In my opinion, the best Fantasy books are ones that don't have a Chosen one, but simply someone who does it not because they want to, but because it needs to be done. Though to go even farther, the best ones are when the Protagonist is underappreciated, even hated for doing what he does. I like tragic stories with a bittersweet ending. Happy endings tend to get on my nerves. So no happy endings, no chosen ones. And no Wise-old-mentors. Also no clear lines between right & wrong, Protagonist & Antagonist, Good & evil (well, on the last, there can be some clearly evil things, but the majority needs to be somewhat blurred--evil needs to look appealing).

Since I have to go eat lunch now, I can't really write as much in this post as I'd like, but be it known that I agree with Arwen, Ea, etc. 100%

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I love Nynaeve! Lol.

Hmm... Here are some things that I like in fantasy:

1. Romance. I'm a hopeless romantic, and to me the more romance in a story, the better. Well, as long as it's believable romance. And I especially hate it when the author makes one character so great/beautiful that everyone else falls in love with him/her. Yeah, gotta be believable realistic romance.
2. A good balance of male and female characters. Don't get me wrong, I luuuuuv LotR, and it is definitely one of the best books ever written, but to me there was way too much testosterone there. I like books that have close to equal amounts of male and female characters.
3. Reasonable magic. I hate it when someone in a fantasy novel just suddenly discovers that they have magical abilities at the exact time that they need them. Have a good reason for the magic.
4. Cool bad guys. While I'm not usually a fan of the bad guys while I'm reading a book, I do like it when the author makes them interesting and complex. I think Robert Jordan did this perfectly with the Forsaken in the Wheel of Time series.
5. Flawed protagonists. I hate perfect characters! Even the main characters/good guys should be considerably flawed. (That's pretty much an obvious one though).
6. Detailed battle scenes. I love reading about battle strategies and sword fights and such. Especially when they are well written.

Sorry if a lot of this is repetitive of what was previously posted. Hope I helped some.

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