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 Post subject: World War II
PostPosted: July 9th, 2005, 12:42 pm 
Tolkien Scholar
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now... I am obsessed with world war 2...no offense to anyone cause I don`t want war, but I just find it intresting and it`s my favourite part of history besides the roman times... so anyway I wish everyone from different coutries to tell if their relatives were in this war or history of your country during the war.... I`d like to also ask an intresting question... do you think finland was wrong to fight along side with the germans in the continual war? we had kinda 2 wars in world war 2...1939 the winter war when the russians attacked us and we it was about year until peace...(I thank the war veterans for keeping my peoples country independent...) and at 1941 we attacked Russia with the Germans....some dreamed of a great bigger finland, but that was a hopeless dream and we couldn`t have never win unless the Germans would have won the russians, which would have been just terrible for the hole world! anyway..we got our peace treaty in 1944 and we had germans in our country so we drove them out to Norway which the Germans had.... that was called the Lapland war....that wasn`t actually a war...the damn Germans burnt Rovaniemi and blew bridges...

actually about that treaty with the Germans where we fought with them and they gave us weapons...it was made only by our president Risto Ryti so the Finnish Governament had no part with it....my own grandmom lived in Karjala, which we wanted back in the continual war...she had to leave there and move to polvijärvi trough few places.... polvijärvi = knee lake which is 50 km away from my hometown Joensuu... then more sadder fate... my grandfathers brother went to the continual war and died when he got a grenade piece in his heart... he had a diary in which he wrote and my grandfather still has it in his home(he was too young for the military that time) So do you judge Finland for attacking Russia and allying with the Germans? And you are most welcome to tell about your relatives in the war and about your country`s actions and so on...please don`t make my efforts to be a waste...

(Everythng is true!!)

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: February 6th, 2007, 9:18 pm 
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Curunìr wrote:
now... I am obsessed with world war 2...no offense to anyone cause I don`t want war, but I just find it intresting and it`s my favourite part of history besides the roman times... so anyway I wish everyone from different coutries to tell if their relatives were in this war or history of your country during the war.... I`d like to also ask an intresting question... do you think finland was wrong to fight along side with the germans in the continual war? we had kinda 2 wars in world war 2...1939 the winter war when the russians attacked us and we it was about year until peace...(I thank the war veterans for keeping my peoples country independent...) and at 1941 we attacked Russia with the Germans....some dreamed of a great bigger finland, but that was a hopeless dream and we couldn`t have never win unless the Germans would have won the russians, which would have been just terrible for the hole world! anyway..we got our peace treaty in 1944 and we had germans in our country so we drove them out to Norway which the Germans had.... that was called the Lapland war....that wasn`t actually a war...the *beep* Germans burnt Rovaniemi and blew bridges...

actually about that treaty with the Germans where we fought with them and they gave us weapons...it was made only by our president Risto Ryti so the Finnish Governament had no part with it....my own grandmom lived in Karjala, which we wanted back in the continual war...she had to leave there and move to polvijärvi trough few places.... polvijärvi = knee lake which is 50 km away from my hometown Joensuu... then more sadder fate... my grandfathers brother went to the continual war and died when he got a grenade piece in his heart... he had a diary in which he wrote and my grandfather still has it in his home(he was too young for the military that time) So do you judge Finland for attacking Russia and allying with the Germans? And you are most welcome to tell about your relatives in the war and about your country`s actions and so on...please don`t make my efforts to be a waste...

(Everythng is true!!)


OOH! My grandpa was a war photographer in WWII. A Really good one I think... :-D

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: October 13th, 2017, 9:24 am 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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Interesting thread! Finland was stuck in a crappy situation and at the time, it seemed in their best interest to side with the Germans against Russia. Sadly, it didn't work out for them.

In world war 2, I had several uncles on both my dad and mom's side, distant relatives, and my childhood friend's dads were involved. My dad and one of his younger brothers were in the U.S. Navy in the Pacific. and a couple other of his brothers were in the U.S. Army and were in France, Holland, and Germany. My mom's oldest brother was in the army and was put in the front line as a 'replacement' before the Battle of Aachan. The fact he lived through it said something, as the replacement death rate in that battle and the Hurtgen Forest battle was 80%. Mom's cousin was in the U.S. Air Corps as a B17 Ball Turret gunner. His plane was shot down over Germany and he spent nearly a year in Stalag Luft III as a prisoner. Another uncle was in the U.S. Army and he was wounded by shrapnel in Belgium in the 'Battle of the Bulge'. My great grandfather came to America from France in 1871 with his little brothers. One of his brothers went back to France, and a couple of his relatives were in the French resistance. Fortunately, out of all our family that was involved in WW2, none were killed. One was wounded, and one was captured and was a POW. Mom herself worked at Boeing in Seattle.

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: October 13th, 2017, 3:02 pm 
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This story belongs to my father, whom I still miss after all the years since his death. He was, and still is, the example against which I measure myself, my friends and my relatives.

My father was a sniper in the 1st Battalion of the Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry. He only rarely spoke of his role in the war, unless it was an amusing anecdote. He did earn two Purple Hearts (Sicily and Italy) and one medal for bravery under fire (Sicily). While in Italy, he developed malaria, somewhat to his 'delight' as he was transferred to Belgium where he convalesced; and where his typing and shorthand skills served him well, allowing him to serve out the rest of his enlistment as a Quartermaster.

On leave in Holland in October 1945, he met his soulmate, my mother, a Sergeant in the Canadian army. He proposed to her five days after they met, and she accepted: something of a miracle, considering she had been seriously underwhelmed by him when they had first met. They were married, twice, (army regs required marriage services to be conducted by both a civilian magistrate and an army Padre), on the 22nd of December, 1945 in Appeldorn, Holland. My father used to tease my mother about not being able to read their "real" marriage certificate because it was written in Dutch, but he was well and truly hooked. They had forty-five wonderful years together and died four months apart in 1990.

My father completed his almost 7 years of service (June, 1939 - May, 1946) in Holland where he fought off ennui, and acted as an interpreter for the Canadian and German officers. He said that everyone, on both sides, were utterly exhausted; and miserably stuck in wet, muddy trenches in wintery Holland, awaiting transport home. The war was finally over.

Incidentally, my father did not volunteer for service, but was conscripted into service. When the U.S. began conscripting its citizens during the Vietnam War, and many fled to Canada to avoid service, my father was very sympathetic towards these "draft dodgers". I was not surprised. He had often commented that the stupidest thing he ever did, was get drunk and ride his horse into a café, thus bringing him to the attention of the RCMP and, subsequently, the armed forces, who had him marked as AWOL. He had managed to avoid detection for several months, thanks to his eldest brother who "lost" his notice to report for duty.

As to the action he saw, this short quote is from the PPCLI website:

Quote:
Canadian troops played a vital role in the 20-month Mediterranean campaign which led to the liberation of Italy during the Second World War. In fact, this campaign was the first large-scale land operation in which the Canadian Army stationed in Great Britain took part.

In this campaign, which was fought in Sicily from July 10 to August 6, 1943, and in mainland Italy from September 3, 1943, to February 25, 1945, the fighting was particularly bitter. The Germans, taking full advantage of mountain peaks and swiftly running rivers, made Allied advance very difficult and costly. There were 25,264 Canadian casualties in the fighting, including more than 5,900 who were killed.

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: October 14th, 2017, 8:40 am 
Istari
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My relatives, almost all living in Cologne, suffered through WW II on the German side. My grandparents were between 39 (paternal grandmother) and 47 (maternal grandmother) when the war started in 1939. My mother was 11, her brother 15, and my dad turned 15 just shortly after the war started. Cologne suffered the most extensive damage (percentage of housing destroyed) of any large German city, being closest to British airfields, so my mother, probably both grandmothers and possibly paternal grandfather (45 in 1939 and having been injured badly enough in WW I that he never had to return to the front) were evacuated from Cologne at various times. My maternal grandfather, around 40 in 1939, and possibly having fought in WW I late in that war, volunteered in hopes of keeping his son out of military action. Was injured on the Russian front, where he commanded a transportation battalion, the injury leading to blood poisoning and damage to his heart, which in turn led to his early death in 1958 from heart failure (I have no reliable memory of him, only pictures in photo albums). My father and my uncle finished school a year early for war reasons (this must have been 1942 for my uncle, perhaps 1943 for my father as his birthday was in late October). My uncle refused to go into officer training (which was the norm and perhaps expected with his school diploma), was badly injured and left for practically dead on the Russian front in 1944. He was found and saved by the Russians, but did not return from PoW captivity until 1949 after 5 years. My father apparently went into officer training, with the German navy. He studied for the engineering side, eventually becoming the lead engineer on a submarine (the crews, including the submarine commanders, were extremely young toward the end of the war, as submarine sorties in the Atlantic had started becoming suicide missions as of about late 1943). He hit the jackpot when he was transferred to a different sub just before his former sub went out on an Atlantic sortie and was destroyed, killing all on board. A neighbor of my paternal grandparents was distraught because he illegally (with potential for being executed if caught) listened to the BBC. Allied intelligence was well enough informed about some of the German military activities that they at very least knew the names of all crew members of my father’s former sub – except that they had missed his getting transferred off. So this neighbor had heard the BBC announce the destruction of my father’s former sub, including a list of all crew members who were killed as a result – but wrongly including my father’s name. Don’t know if this neighbor told my paternal grandparents of what he had heard while the war was still on (or at least until allied troops had occupied Cologne, which was quite a while before the war finally ended on 08 May 1945). It could have been that he did, and in the chaos at the end of the war my father may not have been able to contact them (they might also have been evacuated, as I mentioned). My guess is that he was first able to contact them from the British PoW camp he was in. He was also released quite early.

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: October 14th, 2017, 1:16 pm 
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Conversations with my father made it quite clear that, as bad as the fighting was on the Italian front, the Russian front was much worse. Oddly enough, it was another war on the Russian front - Napoléon's - that added the French/Italian mix to my ancestry, when a wounded soldier, retreating back to France, met and married a German girl.

My father was always reticent to speak about his concerns during the war: the possibly of fighting against 1st cousins; dying in battle; grieving for lost companions; and, how his German parents were being treated back in Canada, considering the anti-Hitler sentiment, which was fierce. Communication was scarce, and he said he lived for news from home. Two of his brothers, and his parents, were faithful with their correspondence, although it frequently arrived out of sync with activities going on at home.

One remark that stood out for me, when he was talking about some of the daft things that happened with new recruits: such as trying to heat beans over a campfire without poking holes in the lid to allow steam to escape (exploding cans), & etc. was how old he was at the time. He noted the "old hands had to teach the rookies how to survive". I asked him how old he was and he replied: "21". For some reason, that conversation resonated with me for a very long time.

After the war, and before he was mobbed out, he had the opportunity to meet many of his uncles and cousins. None of them were supporters of Hitler, but some were conscripted and fought on different fronts than he did. As a side note, he was exceedingly pleased that several uncles owned beer gardens. LOL

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: October 16th, 2017, 12:58 pm 
Istari
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For the first ten years of my life, besides the fact that broaching the topic of WW II would have been way above my head, we were living in Pakistan / India (my parents two years longer, I “joined” them in Pakistan by the usual biological means), far away from post-war Germany. That was highly unusual for a German kid of my generation. That my dad decided to leave Germany short of his 30th birthday in 1954 to become a representative of his company outside (now commonly described as being an “expat”) may have had something to do with his experience of WW II ( and the six years of Nazi rule before the war). Germany was a place we went to on vacations (aka home leave), which was every three years then (try telling THAT to current management wannabes considering such a move!!!)

So the first time I was in any way confronted with WW II – and being (very) vaguely able to understand what that was all about, was when we moved to the US. Of course “Hogan’s Heroes” was pretty useless, but also the other WW II TV shows of the time were, as I would say retrospectively, post-war propaganda. Again retrospectively, I even now can’t imagine what emotions a show like “12 O'Clock High” about American bomber runs against Germany might have elicited in my mother (I’m confused about having memories about that show) – having been on the receiving end of aerial bombing (solely British for quite a while). There must be a reason for my remembering that I, as being an infinitely ignorant pre-teen, once stated that *something* would be “not so bad” – and she very, very quietly responded “nothing could be worse”.

I started reading about WW II in high school, especially the books by Samuel Eliot Morison (retired as Rear Admiral of the US navy). Besides his 1963 “The Two-Ocean War”, I mostly read the books about the pacific war theater of his 15-volume (YIKES! Tops HoME by three books!) series. I have read much more on WW II since then, with a certain concentration on naval topics (due to my dad, probably), but air war with the main focus on fighter pilots, too (I have Chuck Yeager’s 1986 autobiography in paperback). My collection of books on WW II and weapons more generally is only topped by my collection of JRRT and related books.

In one sense, WW II was driven from both TV and much of American attention by the horrific escalation of the Vietnam War. In 1966, the US may not yet have reached the maximum of troops deployed in Vietnam. And of course the 1968 Tet Offensive by the Viet Cong had not yet taken place. In purely military terms it cost the Viet Cong dearly, because so many of their hidden infiltrators were killed by coming out in the open and ultimately being destroyed by superior firepower. But politically and in the effect on media (newspapers and TV at the time) it destroyed LBJ’s chances for a reelection, and also made it clear that the US forces, basically fighting WW II and to a degree the Korean War again, were fighting the totally wrong war.

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: December 22nd, 2017, 5:57 pm 
Istari
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Just moving this thread back up the line, there might be potential participants for fürther discussions ... :wary:

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: December 22nd, 2017, 7:49 pm 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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Gandolorin wrote:
In one sense, WW II was driven from both TV and much of American attention by the horrific escalation of the Vietnam War. In 1966, the US may not yet have reached the maximum of troops deployed in Vietnam. And of course the 1968 Tet Offensive by the Viet Cong had not yet taken place. In purely military terms it cost the Viet Cong dearly, because so many of their hidden infiltrators were killed by coming out in the open and ultimately being destroyed by superior firepower. But politically and in the effect on media (newspapers and TV at the time) it destroyed LBJ’s chances for a reelection, and also made it clear that the US forces, basically fighting WW II and to a degree the Korean War again, were fighting the totally wrong war.


Thanks for your insights Gando.
An aside to WW2, I been watching the Ken Burns doco on The Vietnam War. The LBJ tapes are quite damning. I also thought I saw a photo of my cousin in it, but can't seem to find it online.

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2017, 12:36 am 
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Moving this here because this is where it goes

Elora Starsong wrote:
My family's involvement in WWII centred in the Pacific theatre and hence conflict with Japan at that time. I'll check the thread out, thanks for the tip, but experience has taught me that unless you're talking from one of the "big" countries your contributions are minimized if not silenced entirely. Just check out most of the doco's, the memorials, the books, the films about that era...

My family's involvement in WWI centred in the Middle Eastern and Western European theatres of war...and that was by far crueller for us, like every Australian family of that era - for few were the families did not send someone from our tiny fledgling nation and not a town was left untouched by this distant war triggered by politics that had nothing to do with us. And so profligate was the use of our troops, under a British command structure that came to be surplanted for our own towards the end of that war, that the losses gouged deeply - often in the humblest of families with limited means to cope with such a loss.

But to understand all of that, you'd need to understand the socioeconomics, geopolitics, culture and history of a nation that again, is not one of the "big" ones. And again, few seem to be interested in that.

That's not a complaint from me, mind you, but an observation.

It's how it is. The biggest voices are the loudest and they want to hear about them. And my father's family, to this present day, has yet to forgive the British General Haig, who went on to be known in Australia as The Butcher Haig.

This is why I warned Lembas not to tread with hobnail boots over the Australian voices on the world wars - my days of just smiling and nodding at such antics left me after I saw the whitewashed military memorials dotted throughout the UK. Made my blood boil way back in the year 2000 whilst travelling around then. It was at that point that I decided the gloves were off and they're remained off to this day - I make no apologies for that.

But, that said, I have worked closely with Oxford University and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in recent years to identify and set to rest family members lost for nearly a century. And I have to say, I have been utterly impressed with the professionalism those individuals I have encountered have shown. Professionals drawn from all over the world. Now, I'm not sure whether they qualify as a "world authority" (whatever that might be)...but it just goes to show that it is possible to show compassion and be professional at the same time.

The genuine students of history are those who are hungry to hear from lots of different perspectives, so as to try to assemble a completer understanding. I know that whenever I am delving into a new work on military history, I select for those that include evidence from both sides of the conflict - for therein lies the value of historical studies: learning.

And I am reminded now of something I read by Peter FitzSimmons, I think in his work on Nancy Wake. It was an epilogue, where a British veteran found himself in Germany on the anniversary of a particular WWII battle...sharing a dining room with a German veteran of the same battle. Their parallel tales were particularly insightful and intrigued me in my own professional area (human behaviour and psychology)...I think I'll go read it again.


Look perhaps we’ll agree to disagree, but in the same way you describe me ‘ hobnailing’ your family history by being a British Historian, you also made broad brushtrokes about my profession based on my nationality. Fine, I’m sorry you may feel that way, and let’s move on? :)

For what it’s worth I do genuinely believe every personal story from every belligerent nation in every conflict since 1914 is important, and that’s why it’s my job. That can be the Afghan civilian trying to live a normal life despite the Taliban, that can be a German child running for cover to avoid being strafed by the USAAF, that can be the British woman who lost her Canadian husband and killed herself, the polish child who became physically deformed in later life from having to hide in tiny spaces from the Nazis and many more. But imo a Tolkien message board is not the place to gather such stories. Still is that not by some stretch your assembly of computer understanding? Why is my knowledge gathering worth any less because of my nationality?

If you want to dismiss the idea of a global authority on conflict so be it, but you’ve have just cited two others in CWGC and Oxford, world respected organisations for research on the subject. Here’s mine: IWM. I’ll concede that that ‘I’ stands for Imperial, and that’s awkward, but that reflects partly why and when we were set up in the midst of the First World War in 1917 and the desire for the sacrifice of other nations who fought for us not to be overlooked. BTW One of our biggest international research partners is Australia War Museum too.

Regarding the Second World War, we’re currently fundraising and developing a major new SWW gallery which, while yes covers the ETO etc, is unprecedented in the way it’ll cover the far-eastern and Pacific experience. We want visitors to come and realise the scale of the conflict in the Far East, to realise how horrible it was and most of all to recognise it happened. Yes it’s absent from all the documentaries etc now, but that’s changing, because it’s not right. History moves on.

First World War is kinda off topic and this post is long enough already. But you visited the UK in 2000, that’s nearly 20 years ago, and historical scholarship and interpretation of the First World War has changed vastly in that time. Since your last visit there have been memorials erected across the country for people from Australia (2003), New Zealand (2006), India, Pakistan, Nepal (2002) and so so so many more and their role in the First and Second World Wars. History moves on. But even if that wasn’t the case that shouldn’t stop our war memorials scattered across almost every village in the country from commemorating the men from every village and town who were lost too, who often also had no choice or say in their decision to fight. There’s a commonality to many war experiences, but they’re too complicated to generalise, and it’s wrong to dismiss one and champion another on the grounds of nationality. War is horrible for everyone.

Finally Haig is known as Butcher Haig in the UK too.

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: December 24th, 2017, 12:29 am 
Istari
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Horrific as the absolute numbers of casualties in WW II were, you could add WW I and that “Spanish” influenza that followed on the heels of the latter – and per capita, these casualties combined are still nowhere near the toll that the Thirty-Years-war of 1618 to 1648 caused – and pretty much in what is modern, post-reunification Germany. The only known grim reaper event in Europe that matches that war was the Black Plague / Black Death pandemic starting in Europe around 1346.

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