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 Post subject: Arwen's immortality?
PostPosted: June 5th, 2006, 2:04 pm 
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Okay, so me and some friends were watching the last half of TTT last night, and the question of Arwen's choosing to be mortal and Elrond telling her that even after Aragorn died, she would live on came up. But didn't Luthien choose to die with Beren? And she wasn't even part human, and Arwen is. So how come Elrond is telling her she'll linger on after Aragorn dies if Luthien was immortal and she chose to die with Beren, and then she did? I'm kinda confused...can anyone explain this?

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PostPosted: June 5th, 2006, 4:19 pm 
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Okay, let me answer this and hope I get it right. If not fill in/correct me, someone!

As I understand it, both Elrond and his children have one chance to choose whether to stay Elven-immortal or become mortal. After they choose they're done. Elrond choose to stay an Elf and therefore mostly immortal. Arwen chooses to become mortal.

I think with the whole "linger on" thing we have to remember that Elrond wants Arwen to stay immortal. Therefore he is exaggerating a bit perhaps? Also, Elros, who chose to be mortal but was half-Elven had a very long life, so perhaps Elrond is predicting that Arwen would have a long life even if she chose to be mortal.

We know from "The Tale of Arwen and Aragorn" that Arwen died in the spring after Aragorn died. (He died in the winter.)

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PostPosted: June 5th, 2006, 5:54 pm 
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Right. Elrond does seem like he might do that. But in this case, wasn't his 'gift of foresight' wrong? Or does he not foresee Arwen lingering after Aragorn dies, he just makes an 'educated guess'?

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PostPosted: June 5th, 2006, 8:10 pm 
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The way I see it is that Luthien had a choice to linger on or go when Beren died. It did not matter if she were mortal or immortal. It's the same thing with Arwen and Aragorn. When Aragorn died Arwen could have probably died with him, but she chose to linger on. Why, we may never know.

Elrond's gift of foresight is kind of an unfortunate thing and a tad bit confusing. He saw Arwen lingering on and told her so. When Arwen heard this couldn't she have just decided that she would not and so alter the vision her father had forseen? It's a whole deal between fate and free will. Elrond said her fate would be to linger on, but free will could have told Arwen to die with Aragorn.

It all has to do with the human mind...


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PostPosted: June 5th, 2006, 9:55 pm 
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Larael wrote:
The way I see it is that Luthien had a choice to linger on or go when Beren died. It did not matter if she were mortal or immortal. It's the same thing with Arwen and Aragorn. When Aragorn died Arwen could have probably died with him, but she chose to linger on. Why, we may never know.

Elrond's gift of foresight is kind of an unfortunate thing and a tad bit confusing. He saw Arwen lingering on and told her so. When Arwen heard this couldn't she have just decided that she would not and so alter the vision her father had forseen? It's a whole deal between fate and free will. Elrond said her fate would be to linger on, but free will could have told Arwen to die with Aragorn.

It all has to do with the human mind...


I agree with Lareal on this she explians it good!!!! :)

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PostPosted: June 6th, 2006, 2:26 pm 
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I've understood her "lingering on" to be living a well... lingering life after Aragorn dies. She would be alive, but not really living well, if you understand what I mean. Sort of a "stretched" life. I may be wrong-- that's just how I've always understood it.

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PostPosted: June 7th, 2006, 10:41 am 
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^
me too. I've also understood it that way. But I don't know 100% of course..

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PostPosted: October 31st, 2006, 7:10 am 
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... And wouldn't she die of a broken heart?

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PostPosted: November 1st, 2006, 6:28 pm 
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I think that Elrond was probably exaggerating and I'm not entirely certain if he actually fore saw anything I think it is most likely an educated guess. Being half-elven even after she chose to be immortal she would live on like Elros. And I am sure Elrond was just doing anything to protect Arwen from pain - knowing she would be healed from heartache in the grey havens and that she would be with them.

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PostPosted: November 24th, 2006, 9:54 pm 
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He being descended form Luthien, and being of th eEldar did probably have foresight of a kind. His foresight I think was based on what he hoped would happen, that arwen would take the ship into the west and that it wasnt like Mandos who knows all things that shall be (unless I am mistaken).

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PostPosted: November 28th, 2006, 7:39 pm 
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That's a good point, but I do think his foresight is more than just what he hopes will happen. I think maybe he can see possible things in the future, because of the whole fate and freewill thing. He can't see what exactly is going to happen, but he can see what might happen.

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PostPosted: November 28th, 2006, 8:15 pm 
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Arwen actually would have had to make that choice even if she hadn't ever met Aragorn. According to The Silmarillion:


Quote:
"The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given choice of their own destiny."


Arwen, being the granddaughter of Earendil, would have fallen under this same judgment.

In Appendix A of RotK, Elrond explaints Arwen's fate a little more clearly:

Quote:
"...I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us."
"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses."
"I see," said Aragorn, "that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate."
Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth."
"Truely," said Elrond. "Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass. But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world."


:'(

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PostPosted: November 29th, 2006, 12:52 pm 
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I agree with that Arsaniel, but I reckon that had Arwen not met Aragorn, then she would have never stayed in Middle Earth. Either way she chose, either her Father or her lover would her have been grieved. She was in a situation where there was no total victory. I kinda got off topic. Oh well.

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PostPosted: November 29th, 2006, 6:11 pm 
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OK, my thoughts on this... *deep breath*

I think that, of course, Arwen had to decide whether to be mortal or immortal. However, deciding on mortality did not necessarily mean that she was going to be human...

I do think that what Elrond foresaw is true. I'm not going to just give up his foresight as simply guessing. I think he honestly saw what was going to happen.

After Aragorn died, I think it was then that it was really Arwen's time... it's hard to explain. I think that then Arwen's mortality truly came into effect...

And in a lot of ways I think she died waste away in grief. I think it was a combination of her mortality and her grief that killed her.

And I'm not making much sense...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: November 29th, 2006, 8:47 pm 
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Ok that is a good Post Altariel Frodo. I would like to try to expand on that.
I believe that Arwen, like Elros, had a long lifespan as her lineage was not "stretched", she was only a few links away from Luthien and her other elvish kin. Therefor e she was given a great span of life and that she only died due to grief, for I reckon that her lifespan should have been longer. She essentially became as one of the original Dunedain.
I reckon that Elrond does not have complete foresight, for only Mandos is grnted that power, but he could have some thing similar.
Btw, I was not confused. 8)

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PostPosted: December 9th, 2006, 3:43 pm 
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Firiel wrote:
We know from "The Tale of Arwen and Aragorn" that Arwen died in the spring after Aragorn died. (He died in the winter.)

Wait, I thought he died on his birthday/ :confused:

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