He was in control of Beleriand while the Noldor remained in Aman. However, his realm was still Doriath only, and that was the area his people populated. the only reason he was 'Lord of Beleriand' was because he was lord of the only people who lived there. His realm only extended as far as the reaches of the Girdle.



At that time. And they didn't populate all of Beleriand, for they were few. You cannot claim lordship over a land where none of your people live.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thingol

Here it gives Thingol as 'Lord of Beleriand'. The self-styled Lord of Beleriand. And once other people began to settle in Beleriand, he most certainly wasn't Lord of all Beleriand.

Please do not take this offensively but posting to such places like Wikipedia are generally not wise. They are not Tolkien's official work. Try to quote out of the books if you have them close to hand.

I understand what you are saying Darrell. Thingol's only real authority lay in Doriath, primarily becuase of the Girdle of Melian, but he did officially have Lordship over all the realm of Beleriand, even the parts the Noldor came to dwell in (like you say Earendil - he was displeased with all the princes coming out of the west).

If a Valar was to come back to ME and see a dispute going on over realms then he would grant Thingol the final word. Its just Thingol's power waned outside Doriath, but it did not cease altogether.

Besides have a look in the link you gave to Wikipedia again and in the box on the right hand side of the page you will see it says 'King of Doriath, and of the Sindar, Overlord of Beleriand'.

I know it is not Tolkiens work, but I read over it carefully, and it was all sound. I always try to quote the books, or reliable sources such as the Encyclopedia of Arda.

It would seem we both agree that his only real authority lay on his own realm. but I believe that he styled himself as the lord of Beleriand. It wasn't a title given to him for actually being in control of the entire continent.

And I know what it says on the right of the page. I read it all, and noted what it said. But you yourself said Wikipedia was unreliable [yes, I did just condradict myself a little there]

Perhaps it was self styled but Tolkien would not have let Thingol style himself as Lord of Beleriand if it was not true, being such a noble and powerful Child of Iluvatar.

It would be wise to heed the quotes (and your own sources such as Encyclopedia of Arda and Wikipedia) and submit that, although he had most of his power concentrated within his own realm (due only to the Girdle of Melian), he was Overlord of all Beleriand.

(By the way - you have put up an impressive argument, one which few have managed to accomplish against me on Tolkien Lore)

Maybe cos you come up with subjects you are prepared to answer all questions to ... ? hehe **joking**

**btw, I know the above quote is meant for Darrell**

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Ok, I have to disagree with that. People in this world style themselves as things they are not, so why couldn't Tolkien have one of his characters do the same.

And I think in this instance, I no longer have anything to hold my arguement up with, and I'll accept that whilst he didn't have a great deal of power outside of Doriath, he was (after a fashion) Lord of Beleriand.



Thank you *bows* I have to say something similar to you too. Normally I find my knowledge and sourcing of Tolkiens work is unrivalled. Not so here though. I'd like to thank you for such a good arguement, and congratulate you on your win (though it could be argued that I was kinda right too. But being the loser, I would say that )

Indeed some people do style themsleves they are not, even in Tolkien's world (Melkor styles himsef 'Giver of Freedom' for instance).
However it seems unlikely he would let a very great important Elf, like Thingol, who awoke by the Cuivienen to give him such lordly titles if there was no truth to them at all.

Glad we have finally settled the debate.


Note: if you perhaps want more challenging Lore topics (no offence intended to Arwen Undomiel here of course) then I recommend Tolkien Forums - http://tolkienforums.com/