Well done for starting this topic as i was thinking of starting a topic just like this! You beat me to it!
I think this is really important: one blockbuster writer copying another is just wrong and id like to see how far Rowling would have got without Tolkien...
Here are some more examples;
Butterbur and Butterbeer
Longbottom Leaf and Neville Longbottom
Villains Anonymous - the villains of both fantasies are often referred to indirectly. Boromir calls Sauron "him that we do not name." Other men of Gondor sometimes call Sauron 'The Nameless One'. Most wizards in Harry Potter refer to Voldemort as He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named or You-Know-Who.
Wormtongue and Wormtail
Dumbledore and Dumbledors: Dumbledors – a ferocious race of winged insects in The Lord of the Rings described in the playful Hobbit poem ‘Errantry’ - can be likened to Professor Dumbledore.
Shelob and Aragog
The Use of Mirrors - The Mirror of Erised, the Mirror of Galadriel and the Pensieve.
For me, there are just too many similarities for it not to be just straight copying.
An inferior writer simply copies, whereas a good writer puts a fresh slant on a familiar subject. Rowling has used Tolkien’s characters and objects and altered them to suit her tale.
I have noticed all these similarities as I read the books, and I’m hoping that Rowling will be able to depart from Tolkien in The Deathly Hallows as she did in Half-Blood Prince...

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Smile till u laugh, laugh till u cry

Well done for starting this topic as i was thinking of starting a topic just like this! You beat me to it!
I think this is really important: one blockbuster writer copying another is just wrong and id like to see how far Rowling would have got without Tolkien...
Here are some more examples;
Butterbur and Butterbeer
Longbottom Leaf and Neville Longbottom
Villains Anonymous - the villains of both fantasies are often referred to indirectly. Boromir calls Sauron "him that we do not name." Other men of Gondor sometimes call Sauron 'The Nameless One'. Most wizards in Harry Potter refer to Voldemort as He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named or You-Know-Who.
Wormtongue and Wormtail
Dumbledore and Dumbledors: Dumbledors – a ferocious race of winged insects in The Lord of the Rings described in the playful Hobbit poem ‘Errantry’ - can be likened to Professor Dumbledore.
Shelob and Aragog
The Use of Mirrors - The Mirror of Erised, the Mirror of Galadriel and the Pensieve.
For me, there are just too many similarities for it not to be just straight copying.
An inferior writer simply copies, whereas a good writer puts a fresh slant on a familiar subject. Rowling has used Tolkien’s characters and objects and altered them to suit her tale.
I have noticed all these similarities as I read the books, and I’m hoping that Rowling will be able to depart from Tolkien in The Deathly Hallows as she did in Half-Blood Prince...

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Smile till u laugh, laugh till u cry

Firstly I would like to apologise for not replying sooner, but I have been ill the last few days and so havent been on my computer.

I would advise looking at http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/m.html which is a very good website stating the origins, meaning etc. of many of Harry Potters characters. Some may think that it will be a website that is in total favour of HP and refuses to say Rowing has 'copied', but some of the facts Nessmister of the Rings stated are in there, but there are also numerous stats on the real meaning behind names.

2 which it dosent thoroughly mention but Nessmister did were Wormtail/Wormtongue and the mirrors. I would like to cast my doubt on the belief Rowing got this from Tolkein. I am not totally sure what the Mirror of Galadriel can do but from what I could tell from the film, it seemed to show that Frodo could get hope from the mirror, almost as if drifting into another world. The Mirror of Erised shows only what the heart most desires. It does not show an event taking place or anything in particular happening, but just, for example, the person looking into the mirror happier, for example as Prime Minister. As for the Pensieve, this is something from whcih old thoughts can be put into and watched to aid clarity, nothing new happens in them. If I have been wrong about the Mirror of Galadriels powers, please inform me.

As for the Wormtail/Wormtongue similarity, yes the name is similar, but the characters are quite different. Wormtail is a rat like, selfish little man, who is nonetheless naturally secretive and ''scared''. He is not one to go out and be obviously evil, but works from the shadows, behind his masters back. He only went on the side of Voldermort becuase he believed he had more to gain. As far as I can tell, Wormongue is much more willing to do his masters bidding in the open and is not as afraid of the consequences he could face. I believe he was one who was also on the side of evil, but again my LoTR knowledge isnt great so please correct me if Im wrong.



Sounds like someone who wont hear a word against LoTR, as the following proves.



As far as I could tell, you were not offering any possible suggestions to how Rowling has plagurised Tolkeins work. I am not denying Tolkein wasnt a great writer, perhaps the best, but not does not make him different from any other. Everyone needs inspirations from other works, as HP has from a few LoTR ideas, so has LoTR from many other works, such as Beowolf, The Story of Sigurd, Le Morte D'Arthur and many many more. I dont see how the time the work has been out, or how readers percieve his work change whether it is plagurism or inspiration. As far as I can see, I have successfully dismantled several of your views on how HP has plagurised LoTR and are now resorting to stating that LoTR is agreat book, due to your inability to think up any more arguements. LoTR is a great book, but it is not that good that all of the ideas must be original. It ripped off ideas from other books just as you claim Rowling has from Tolkein.

You again stated the similarity between Dementors and Nazgul. They both wear cloaks and you cant see their faces, that is the only thing in common. Can Nazgul fly or float, can Dementors walk or ride horses? You said Nazgul guard some of Saurons realms amongst other ares for their master. Dementors do it for their own good, yes they have been asked to do it but they could (and eventually do) leave whenever they want. They remain as it is for their benefit. When they return to Voldermort they guard nothing.

As for Frodos-Guide's comment I again find it quite easy to argue. From what I can see, Old Man Willow is an ancient Tree, been there for ages who has a mind of his own, cant move but can lure people, and looks after as much of the forrest as he can. The Whomping Willow is a tree that has been present for around 50 years, remains stationary for all but all of the time, cant move and guards over only a small tunnel. It is there for the protection of the people, despite attempting to hit anyone who tries to enter the tunnel, as it stops people entering the tunnel where a werewolf once went. Similarities 1 - Cant move

As for the Dobby-Gollum connection, alooking at the site I posted above will give you a much better indictaion as to where the origins of the character were first thought of. Good point, but incorrect.

Going back to Nazgul, sorry if I sounded a bit aggressive, but it does annoy me when people who struggle to come up with arguments resort to the only thing they know, stating that the book is great, along with numerous facts that back this up. This thread is not discussing which is the better book, so why you brought it up I do not know.

Need a lie down, but as I say, if I have made any mistakes regarding any points I have made, please point them out. Also, sorry for the spelling mistakes, I expect their are many, but I have written too much for me to go back and check it.

I see I have over stepped into the arguement of Tolkien vs Rowling as Authors please forgive me I dont know where my mind was when writing that post, obviously not in the true meaning of this topic, or perhaps mis interpreting one of your posts, again Im sorry. I think all of the ammo for shooting down Rowling is exhausted on my part Im open to debate and examination about the issues that have been shared. But I think I will stick to commenting on the arguements of others untill I have fully brushed up on the subject.

On a side note
Im sorry to have heard about your illness, If you are infact from England there is a nasty bug going around down here, if you are Brittish, do you live anywhere near Essex?

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OK thanks for the apology my friend

No Im actually from further up north, near the Lake District - Barrow-in-Furness. I doubt you've heard of it But yes, there soes appear to be a bug going around

Naive southern Im afriad

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By the way, disregard my comment on Tolkein being the best author. Thats Rowling

I think Ive wasted my time debating with you as I was under the illusion you were open to arguments with an open mind. I definatley accept Rowling is a fine Author however left in the dirt to Tolkien. John is the measuring stick by which all modern fantasy Authors are measured, untill HP gains a legacy beyond our time, which it is more than capable of doing in the distant future, but untill that time arguments of Rowling besting Tolkien are quite absurd. I think we have pretty much been through all of the plairgurism arguments and established all of the areas in which Rowling has 'sampled', to put it kindly, the works of Tolkien.

A list Im sure is more than fair
Dementors/Nazgul
Wormtoungue/Wormtail
Old man Willow/Whamping Willow
Shelob and Aragog
The Use of Mirrors - The Mirror of Erised, the Mirror of Galadriel and the Pensieve (However Im not famillier with the common use of the mirrors)
Doby/Gollum

They are the concrete ones in my view...although debate could re-open about a few more.
Also after reading the link on Tolkien's inspirations, doesnt the mere fact you brought up Tolkien lead me to believe you needed a scapegoat to turn to if your defence of Rowling turned ill?

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You have wasted your time debating if you are going to bring up arguments I have already comprehensively disproved. As far as I can tell, you are not very adept at debating, as you simply bring up old arguments constantly, finding very loose similarities and shouting plagurism.

I would also like to know what an open-minded view, to you, entails, as it seems to me you have to love Tolkein in order to be open-minded. Once again you have shown your naivity. LoTR was the best selling book of the 20th Century. That time has gone, his time has gone, and more books are now being created and SURPASSING his works. As a HP fan i will always say Rowlings work is better, as a LoTR fan you will say Tolkeins is. We will have to agree to disagree.

Dementors/Nazgul - Only similarity appearance - Dementors can fly, Nazguls cant, Nazguls serve their master and only their master, and guard things for him, Dementors switch between masters and serve nothing for Voldermort.

Wormtoungue/Wormtail - Same name, I have already given a lengthy list of arguments showing they arent similar

Old man Willow/Whamping Willow- As above

Shelob and Aragog- "Ara" comes from "arachnid," which is the class spiders belong to. "Gog" was a legendary giant. Together, "giant arachnid."

The Use of Mirrors - The Mirror of Erised, the Mirror of Galadriel and the Pensieve (However Im not famillier with the common use of the mirrors) - Erised shows you what you most want to see, whether it is possible or not (As far as I know Mirror of Galadriel cant.) Again I have given lengthy arguments against already. Pensieve allows thoughts/events that have happened to be placed inside and viewed. Again I dont think the MoG can.

Doby/Gollum - Comparable to the Fenoderee or Brownie NOT GOLLUM!!!!. The Fenoderee is not very intelligent, but he is a hard worker who performed labor for the farmers of the Isle of Man. He goes around naked, for the offer of clothes will greatly offend him, causing him to stop working. He was originally very handsome, but after making the mistake of wooing a mortal girl, he was punished and lost his good looks. He turned into the ugly, solitary creature he is now. Brownies are good-natured, invisible brown elves or household goblins who live in farmhouses and other country dwellings in Scotland. While people are asleep, they perform their labors for them. If offered payment for their services or if they are treated badly, they disappear and are never seen again. Supposedly, a "Dobby" is a brownie that can't do anything right.

It annoys me when I make arguments against certain "plagurisms" and you completely ignore them and state once again that they are plagurised without bothering to look at the arguments already given. Please come back when you have looked at the arguments given here and in my other posts and reply, I would like to know your opinions on what I have said.

And on your last comment, it was a freind who started saying HP is plagurised from LoTR. I merely came on this site because he informed me that the best arguments for were on here and I wanted to voice my point of view. You are as good at arguing as he - not a compliment.

Comprehensivley disproven, Im afraid you are burying your head in the sand and ignoring all of my arguements entirely. Not once have I explicitly pointed the finger at Rowling and stated she is a Plagiarist, I have simply outlined some basic arguements that Im sure you may have come accross before. Never was I attacking you, I was replying to your thread in order to give you insight into the main arguments into 'plagiarism', In fact it was your wording that led me to use the word, paranoia I sense in you coming to this forum? Please note the correct spelling of plagiarism.

Coming to an TLOTR forum was little too cautious of a decision in my view, literary debate and analysis forums would mst probably best suited for your cause.

Im sure your friend has a simillar outlook to me, In that im not avid at tearing into Rowling and I definatley respect all she has done for the world of Fantasy Fiction, but another thing we must agree to disagree with is that Rowling took some of her ideas from many works, and used them for her own, its simple common sense, read all of the works 'sampled' by Rowling and it hits you bang in the face.

Finally, I may sound narrow minded, but all lovers of modern and classic novels will realise no single work of a modern author will ever, in our lifetime, take over the mantle of Tolkien, not even Rowling. Early sales suggestions may suggest great things, but untill HP gains a legacy away from the shadows of great fantasy, I cant give it more respect than greater works of modern writing. Indeed I hope that days comes.

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I have already stated the reasons behind coming on this forum. At school there are numerous Harry Potter fans that constantly destroy my friends arguments, as he is outnumbered. I came on this forum to gain a more balanced view, and see what the majority of LoTR think about the issue.

I do see now, having needed to put in extra research for the good of this debate, that Rowling, as any writer will have, gained her inspiration rom earlier works. I still am at a loss to see any concrete evidence as regards to Rowling plahiarising Tolkeins work, and I am glad to see you are now backtracking a little and saying that Rowling had sampled work rather than plagiarised it.

I agree with you that Tolkein WAS a superb writer, but his time has gone, and the point we disagree on is on whether Rowling has overtaken Tolkein, another point we will have to agree to disagree on.

This topic appears to be coming to an end, but I am pleased with all the arguments put forward. I believe I hae done my bit to HP, and I have managed to successfully argue against the plagiarism claim. I have yet to see much evidence I havent been able to disprove on that point, and I must say that if stealing the name Longbottom from LoTR is the only thing taken, I am proud of my work.

Finally, plagiarism spelling noted

Backtracking I think not, the tone of my posts my have been mis-understood by yourself. The use of the word 'sampling' was trying to put accross my point a little easier as you seem to be quickly at temper whenever your arguments are threatend. Again I am not trying to savagley attack you but trying to put my arguements accross more softly because I think your annoyance of the bleeding obvious seems to cloud either the tone or accuracy of your arguments.

I think you are right in that the topic is coming to an end and it seems to be a matter of opinion rather than fact, because it is an issuse of personal interpretation of words and taste in literature. In a way it is a no win situation for both parties, and I just wish that I had more adequete support from the forum, last time a topic like this came it was one way traffic, this is the first time I have faced a decent set of arguements without at least some cohearant support, Im afraid you caught me certainly off guard and applied yourself well. Are we agreed on what I stated in the 2nd paragraph of what I said?

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We are. When I joined I certainly expected alot more participation from other LoTR fans but, apart from one-off comments, none have come.

You mentioned your arguments and I have looked at them and given counter-arguments. Until such a time you comprehensiveve any of your arguments, I will be unable to agree with you that Rowling has plagiarised any of Tolkeins work.

I definatley see your point of view, it is further proof that TLOTR craze has died down and the our time as TLOTR fans has come to an end. In my view it is impossible either way to hit a point home for either team because there are coounter arguments for counter arguments alike. Im sure you can resepct in both instances, that if I were not alone you may have come under much more scrutiny, and also the friend you mention , no matter how clever or dumb an TLOTR fan he is, there is weakness in slow numbers, and no matter how hard one tries, one does not bear the answers to everything...unforunatley 8) It has been good debating with you Leo, I welcome you on more of my fansites but if our debate is anything to go by, you may not like certain things I like

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