How do we really know that Sauron, Morgoth, the Witch-King, etc. were actually evil? Remember, LOTR is written in the human perspective and what we perceive as good and evil. Maybe Sauron and Morgoth had more of a purpose than to gain power. What do you guys think?

As you've already discussed there's a large difference between what drives the Nazgul and what drives Morgorth/Sauron.

I found some passages in The Silmarillion:



He had the greatest gifts, the greatest potential out of any of the other Valar. The question is why he decided to use his power as an “evil” figure. Certainly if he had stayed on the “good” side he still would have had the most power, and would be the ruler of Valinor. So without a doubt, it was based more than just wanting to gain power. Now look at this.



He differed from the rest of them, with his greater knowledge I think he felt separated. His thoughts were different, he questioned what Illuvatar instructed. The rest of the Valar didn’t say a word, and it describes that they didn’t comprehend what Illuvatar told Melkor later on in the book. They were frightened by Melkor, and Illuvatar. He was different than them. Generally it’s the underdog, the “runt”, etc. that rebels. In this case it’s the one with the greatest gifts who is. Him being above his sisters and brothers, didn’t want to be overpowered by anyone, not even Illuvatar anymore, as we see in Ainulindale.

The thoughts that Melkor had affected his music and the music the Ainur produced faltered. Illuvatar arose and changed the theme, leaving Melkor apart from it. Melkor became angry and violent and the rest stopped singing. Illuvatar began a new theme that blended Melkor’s sound with his brethren’s sound. Yet Melkor continued to sound above the rest. Finally Illuvatar stopped the music, and made Melkor feel shame for what he did which brought on anger.

The fact that he felt shame after what Illuvatar told him makes him angry. He’s feeling powerless. Then the world was created, conceived by their music.



Here’s where we see his want for power. Really, he wanted the power that Illuvatar had. But if he aimed at becoming that powerful while doing what Illuvatar intended, that would be looking up to him and striving to be like him. He took a different root, wanted to make a name for himself that had no affiliation with Illuvatar.



He went on to destroy what the other Valar had made, and a war started in Arda.

Now, what is it that makes him evil, or is he actually evil? I think that if anyone was to be called evil, it’s Melkor. To me he’s what every bad guy in a story is.

It says that his mood and his malice caused his form to be “dark and terrible”. If you look at everything that drove Melkor; it was power, glory, anger, and envy. Under our perspective and definition of evil, Melkor definitely was. Should we blame him and say he was a bad person? When Melkor first began to think differently than the others, it was before the Earth was even created. It wasn’t good and bad then, it was the original point of view and Melkor’s opposition to that which continued when Arda was created and developed the good and evil mentality. I think that “Evil” and “bad”, is what differentiates from what is normal and acceptable.


Here's hoping that made sense. All for tonight, folks.

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{Beri}

You definatly had some very good points. I must add that after reading those quotes, I don't think that Melkor started out evil- like you mentioned, he had the most powerful gifts of all the Valar and also the most potential. However, his greed for power and domination overcame him in the end. In a sense, they began to rule him, control him, if that makes sense. His envy, disire for power, and pride is what turned him against everyone else. In every instance that he rebels, it is because of one of these three things.

In the Music of the Ainur, he rebeled for disire of power, as you mentioned, Beri. Then when he made the Noldor distrust the rest of the Valar, it was for greed for the Silmarils and other Jewels. If he could have overcome these "faults" perhaps he could have lived in harmony with everyone else.

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Beri good points, glad you joined us!!

Yes Melkor had the same starting point, the same potential as the other Ainur but still he was something "special". I wonder what Middle-earth would have looked like if he had won... and what that would have done to our idea of 'good' and 'evil'... Would the Valar be looked upon as 'evil' white beings of light?

Anyway, this is a very odd and ackward discussion in a way, because this world is created by one man.. and just a man. He was an expert on Middle-earth because he created it.... Tolkien is Ilúvatar, but still he didn't finish his work. And we merely know fragments of Middle-earth, this is why it is so difficult to discuss it and yet so wonderfully open to interpretations!!!
Ane there would be no LotR trilogy if Melkor was a good guy like the rest of the Ainur!

But to get back on topic.
In my opinion Melkor wasn't evil from the beginning (like stated in Ainulindalë) but after that he "corrupted" himself and turned bad (not evil, just bad). It's really bad to break someone's car in kindergarden simply because the other kids wont play with you... and when the other kids offer to accept you into their games, but all you want to is climbing trees....
Umm.. got a little metaphorical.....

Beriandanwen, I've got to ask you this.
Why is striving for power evil? Melkor's got potential.. perhaps even greater than other Ainur, he really is a Lord of Arda. He has great knowledge of the Creation of Arda and understands a lot from the Song, what is wrong in him ruling Middle-earth?
Alright... I'm not quite succeeding in taking the opposite standpoint... so bear with me, please. But I still hope to see more views and opinions on the concept of good and evil

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It isn't evil to strive for power, but it tends to be people thinking they're superior to everyone else and can lead into the dictator role. Stereotypically, the "good" ones don't want power the power. Aragorn, Dumbledore, Aslan, Gandalf, and so on. I think that the morals, or lack of morals, that people who want power so badly have makes them "evil". There is nothing wrong with him ruling Middle-earth, it's how he rules it and with what intentions.

As for Sauron, I don't remember reading anything about his really early days, becoming a follower of Melkor. It's hard to determine his intentions in the beginning, however afterwards we could examine it.

I must be off studying for history now, unfortunately.

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{Beri}

Sorry for taking so long to reply.. things have been quite busy lately.
I follow your meaning and of course I agree fully with you. These are the established values and morals of our society and our ways of behaving: "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you", act unselfishly and try to do good etc.
But do you think it would be possible to create a meaningful world with the complete opposite morals? Where 'evil' was 'good'. And would the ordinary reader buy that?
Alright, taking it really far out again...
Back on topic.


It's been a while since I read the Sil but I have a feeling Sauron was blinded by his own greed.. he sought power too, that's why he stayed with Melkor. Melkor had quite many followers back then...

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Oooh...Philosophy... My favorite!
Melkor was once good, wasn't he? Then he just went bad. Sorry, I read the Silmarillion last year and didn't take any notes. Soon's I get a notebook I'm taking millions of notes but back to the topic...
Was Sauron's intent in making the ring to become more evil? Did he even mean to be evil when he made the ring? Sure, he deceived the others, but did he really strive to be evil or did he just end up that way?

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Melkor wasn't ever what I think you could call "good". He was always the most devious and the .... worst, I suppose, of the Valar. He was kind of like that since the beginning- like during the Music of the Aiunniar. (sp?) But it became worse and worse as time went on, until he finally broke off from the rest of the Valar and Valinor completely.

As for Sauron, I think that he had evil intent when making the Ring. He wanted power above all.

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I think LotR really shows the desire for power which can turn people evil and is more often than not the downfall of men. Sauron, and Morgoth were turned evil by their desire for power and to rule the world and command the races.

Melkor was always rather devious as was said above. He wanted the fire (I think that was it (I wish I had the book on me)), he wasn't happy that Illuvatar had it and that they had to simply be happy like that and not question Illuvatar.

Sauron is pretty similar his desire for power made him do the things he did and try to take over M-E.

The Witch King and the rest of the nine fell to power and were seduced by it. They were drawn in by Sauron and eventually fell to the ring which was far too strong for them. They were greedy and that was their downfall.

Hobbits seem immune to this desire for power, maybe because they are peaceful and so small in such a large world.

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in a way, good and evil are defined by their opposites - we know something is one because it is not the other. we accept that eru is good because he is the benevolent creator, and melkor is opposed to eru (and therefore not good) so we see him as evil. there is also a tradition of associating evil with destruction (quite rightly most of the time) and melkor seeks to destroy and undo what eru has done, which further casts him in the evil mould.

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Well, Beriadanwen has pretty much answered everything exactly the same way I was going to, but I think I've got a chance to answer Ea's question first.

But do you think it would be possible to create a meaningful world with the complete opposite morals? Where 'evil' was 'good'. And would the ordinary reader buy that?

If evil was "good," and the standard that everyone lived by, I don't think Arda would last long. Do orcs really know how to exist outside of war? What do they do instead of fighting? Once Morgoth conquered Arda, it seems that he would have covered it in darkness, and populated it with orcs and corrupted men, and any who opposed him would be thralls. How long would Iluvatar tolerate that? He knows the future; he knows how it will end. I think that, at the corruption and enthrallment of his 'children,' either he would take a hand in it personally, and put down Morgoth once and for all, or act a little more subtly, until eventually, the Orcs, undisfigured Elves, and Men would rebel, because I don't think they would accept such tyranny for long. And if they all fought against Morgoth, there's not much he could do to stop them, because even when vastly outnumbered, the Elves could still seriously dent his forces, and even kill the Balrogs.

So, eventually, he'd end on his own, no matter what happened, in my opinion. Either Iluvatar would cast him out, or all of his 'subjects' would turn against him, and he'd have no one left to rule.

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i spose with Melkor the old phrase "power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely" is approprite. In his search to be master of Arda he did not consider the feelings of others and their contribution. Also the books says that he was jealous Of Aule, for th ey were most alike. Yetv Aule intended to do good with what he was given and gave back of his gift to Eru whereas Melkor used his for his own gain and did not give back to Eru.
Or summat like hat, u have pretty much covered this subject lol.

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