more importantly, who are you to judge my opinion

Witch-king, the post was not directed at you, it was more like a thought that came to my mind while I was reading over the previous posts again.
This eternal discussion on good and evil in the world has always been a part of every society and culture. It's a core question in the philosophy, mythology, psycology.. .. even politics! (I'm thinking the discussion on 'terrorism' vs. 'freedom fighters', how you interpret things all depends on whose side you're on). And I think the question on good and evil is very interesting. Tolkien deals with it in a mythological way where good is good and bad is bad but if you take it a step further, to a more abstract level or apply it to our own everyday lives it is not easy to 'judge' anymore. Things get complicated and at the same time interesting....

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ill lay off,sorry, i get touchy sometimes

No, I'd rather have you join in in the discussion, it is interesting to hear other peoples' opinions and especially on a topic like this!!

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Hm lemme put my favourite Valar in order...#

-Orome
-Varda
-Ulmo

Those are my favourites, though I love all of them! (except Melkor of course...)

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pretend that melkor did get Osse on his side....dark spirit of the sea

one word for that: EEP!

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I notice that many of you choose Varda. I, too, like strong and wise ones. Beauty? Beauty is just outer stuff, as we all know I guess, so that's pretty much irrelevant, but in the world of Tolkien, I suppose that the beautiful ones are the good ones. (Hence: Arwen and Galadriel and numerous others.) Anyone ever hear of a beautiful Sauron or a beautiful Gollum?

(Just thought I might drop by to make that point.)

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You all have many good points, and to comment on yours Ea I would say. It is confusing to decide who is good and who is evil in our world today, because say with America and Iraq (this is just an example, I don't mean to offend anyone) most Americans might think that Iraqi terorrists are evil, but Iraqi citizens (maybe) and Iraqi terrorists might think we are the evil ones. The U.S is fighting them because they think that they are 'evil', but why are the terrorists fighting back? Maybe because they think the opposite, that the U.S is 'evil' and not them. This is very confusing. Good point Ea.

Now to comment on yours Elberethsq. We really don't know what Sauron and Melkor looked like, but because we deemed them 'evil' we think they are in a sense 'ugly'. We really don't know what the Vala look like but because we deemed them 'good' we think they are in a sense beautiful. I really don't know why we do this, its just our nature I guess. Really, I don't think there is good or evil, we just use it because humans like to stereotype people.

So there are my comments.

You have a good point there, and I agree that good and evil can be used to stereotype people because it varies from one mind to the other on what is good, and what isn't, so that's a very good insight. Even today, some of us believe that certain measures are necessary to take, while others argue that those measures are wrong. So maybe there's not one evil and not one good if we all have different views about it. We do live in a very controversial world, I suppose. Due to all that, maybe we can say that Sauron was not entirely evil if not everyone agreed so (no doubt that he didn't think of himself as evil.)

Good insights, and this is all my opinion, by the way, and it's open for argument.

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Thanks for joining the good/evil discussion!

That's exactly what I was trying to say; that good and evil depends on the whose side you're on. But in reality we're talking about right and wrong here. He who has the strongest military power has the right on his side, sadly enough...
But good and evil what is that? I mean deep down, fundamentally, literally speaking. Is it even possible to seperate it from any sociology, teology, psychology, politics and nature? I'm not trying to turn it into a religious discussion because we will be getting nowhere from there but I'm trying to get down to the very basic... what is the nature of 'good', the cardinal features...? (Personally I believe that we basically know when we act 'good' but our choices and judgments can be blurred... thus it will be wrong to kill another person but there can be situations where we are not able to act 'right', however, we're still aware that the act is wrong....).

Good point, Elberethsq and I'd like to add to this.
The Valar and Maiar are spirits and they can take on any form they wish. E.g. Sauron (Maia-spirit) appeared to the elves and men of Númenor as a noble and handsome man in... the second age I believe... to gain their trust and confidence, though he actually spyed for Melkor.

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The world of Tolkien and the world todays are very different and similar as well. There seemed to be more wisdom back in those days and beauty was something that seemed to matter but maybe in Tolkien's world the womens beauty represents their goodness. Our world todays is so full of opinions and different views of good and bad, and so many flexibilities, there doesn't seem to be any right or wrong. For example, people who seek the truth, there isn't really any specific truth at all, it's what we believe and our own morals.

Of good and evil; on which side to be, we decide that on our own. Someone may have done some great deeds but if they as a person aren't noble and true, you can't call them good. And well evil is a very long and twisting subject that I think I'll write about after I read what everyone else has posted.

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Well, acutally good and evil doesn't depend on which side your own, it depends on you as a person. For example; each side opponent seems like the evil side to each force in war but say a young boy was sent into war because they didn't have enough men to fight so they recruited children, is it there fault there on the wrong side? I think the way only way you can really judge a person for good or evil is there own deeds and how the act and there ways. Judging someone one by which side they are on is like judging them by their race or gender. It's like asuming each person on that side is just like the next one. [/quote]

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Another good point Arien. As I said before people 'stereotype' the other 'side' all the time, so depending on what 'side' your on means if you are 'good' or 'evil'............but then again which is the right side and the wrong side. OMG this is so confusing........after all this discussion it seems to me that there is no 'good' or 'evil' and there is no 'right' or wrong' side.....it is just what we stereotype people and different views.

I hope some of that makes sense.........to someone.

Um sorkYes I understood that. Badically, I don't think that a person can be called bad for what their leaders decide. For example, in war, there's one good side and one bad. The people fighting on the bad side aren't all necessarily bad. They could have a great personality or be really nice. They just want to defend their country and can't be blamed for the decisions their leaders and not they themselves made.

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[/quote]
I agree and that's why I jumped to the right and wrong discussion... which by the way is as long as good vs. evil!!
Everyone has good points and it is very interesting to discuss this matter with you all. I think we pretty much agree on the right and wrong subject that there are always at least two possible ways to look at a case. Do you mind if we move to the inner.... feelings, opinions, matters... what to call it? I mean something about how to live our lives.... I mean if we as individuals always have a choice (borderlines eksistentialism) in everything we do, how do we make the 'right' choice, or do we always wanna make the right choice? Are humans good or bad by nature or is it too complex a matter to put in such a simple way?
I'm sorry I can't eplain it better, it's getting late here and I don't even know if this makes sense.... I'll check back later....

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