Thankyou Thankyou and Thankyou Eyalan!

Finally, someone who agrees like me! Hehe, I do believe they could change shape and form those wings although to the extent that before the First Age Ended, as happened with Melkor, they lost there shape shift powers and remained as they were.

Thanks,
Eärendil The Mariner

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You're most welcome, Eärendil The Mariner!

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Lest you can provide a quote which states that a Balrog could shape shift then I am afraid its only speculation...

Lord of all,

Lest you can provide a quote which states that a Balrog could NOT shape shift, then we may agree. hehe

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Thats like saying 'Unless you can provide a quote saying Morgoth was NOT 100 feet tall, then we must assume he WAS 100 feet tall'.

Rather the opposite.

I think th ebalrog ran up the stairs because it was a bit knackered. Well, so would you if you had been fighting gandalf and fallen into a massive lake of water as well

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

Lord of all, I suggest you read The Unfinished Tales. In the section called 'The Istari,' (really just an essay of Tolkien's on them, which Christopher published in the book) Tolkien mentions that Olorin (Gandalf) would wander among the elves, sometimes assuming a body and talking with them, but other times just being 'there' and shapeless, to plant suggestions in their heads (it says something along those lines, but it definately says it. Go read it).
Sauron also could change shape, being the 'beautiful' person he was when he convinced the elves to make the Rings, and when he was on Numenor. Afterwards, though, for causing Numenor's downfall, he lost his ability to shape-shift.

There you have it: Two Maiar could definately shapeshift, and if they could, why not the Balrogs? Sauron and the Balrogs were actually the same type of Maiar, too - Sauron was the greatest of the Valaraukar, to be sure, but they were still all Maiar of Aule. So if Sauron could, the other Balrogs should be able to, also.

And this not having been stated before: I think maybe some Balrogs had wings and some didn't - if they could all shapeshift, why in the world would they want to look alike? I do believe that they lost their ability to shapeshift, and got stuck in the forms they had chosen, but still - I don't think they all had wings, but maybe some did, and maybe some could fly.

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I think Aerandir is right here Lord of all. Unfinished tales does say that Olorin took many different forms among men and elves, sometimes as just a feeling. Also, methinks that when morgoth was overthrown by The Valar sauron lost some of his powers and maybe that was the case with the Balrogs too. oh and monkeys can fly really.

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

You two are a bit behind with the times. This has been mentioned before.

Olorin could indeed shape-shift as could Sauron. However it appears that when a being is in Middle-earth they cannot shape-shift mostly. The five Istari were bound to there forms, as was Melkor for the most part. Sauron was also bound to his form after the Fall of Numenor.

In short I believe some Maiar can shape shift, others cannot. Osse can control the waters, other Maiar cannot.

As we are told only that the Maiar spirits took shapes of Balrogs when they first entered Ea, but never again afterwards I think its pretty conclusive to say it was not one of there powers to shape-shift thereafter, like Ungoliant. Perhaps becuase Ungoliant and the Balrogs took such huge and hideous shapes they sought of lost that power once they were in them. Sauron only took the dreadful shape after he went back to Middle-earth after the downfall of Numenor - the time he lost the power.

I acknowledge that point Lord of all and I think that The reason that Olori couldnt change form as an istari because Manwe would have wanted a symbol of continuity for the elves and men to rally around against Sauron and Gandalf would have probably not been acepted by Men certainly had he been changing form all the time. Manwe himself would not wish to alienate the Edain. Please send back. This debate is fascinating.....
Namarie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

Indeed the reason that the Istari cannot simply change form is becuase of the bidding on Manwe. He wanted them to remain in forms as of the poeples of middle-earth so as yto not unknowlingly intimidate the peoples of ME.

However I still stick to my second opinion. The Balrogs and Ungoliant wrought shapes so terrible, far exceeding Saurons shape and thus perhaps were bound to it by this over use of there powers. Indeed there is no firm reason why Melkor lost his ability to shape shift after The Darkening of Valinor, but its something Tolkien did so that he would be more easily assailable to the Valar in the War of Wrath. Otherwise he could have simply turned into a cloud and escaped from Angband to another part of Arda etc.

Mae govannen Lord of all! I also suppose Tolkien wanted Sauron not to overly terrible like the balrogs or ungolient as I think that he wanted Sauron not to scare somebody physically but rather work on someones psyche, which can endure far less torment than a body can. The second point is actually a good one on further thinking as Melkor himself devoted much of his power to ungolient to steal the silmarils that his power was diminished greatly and the only thing that stopped ungolient taking the silmarils by force was the sharpish movement of a few balrogs that stopped him becoming spider stew. Good point Lord of all, but please also acknowledge the merits of my point.
Very excellent discussion is hard to find nowadays and I look forward to mor eof it.
Namarie!!!

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

Indeed it was a good debate. Unfortunately there are few quotes on the matter to utterly conclude either way.

May we have decussions on other threads. I dont know why tolien didint try to resolve this maTter, even partially, in his notes or slightly less well known books.
Lol
Namarie!!

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

It is my position that the "wings" mentioned in LotR were metaphorical. .

Indeed, pre-LotR Balrogs were shown not to be able to fly.


Tolkien also says:


and:

Maybe they did have wings, but possibly unable of sustaining flight. Also, Morgoths Chief foes, the Eldar, never devised a way to fly and maybe morgoth never really bothered to create anything that could od so until the dragons lol.

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "