since reading the Silmarillion i have wondered if Ungoliant and shelob are the same creature. I wonder, anyone have any thoughts.

Shelob was the offspring of Ungoliant. Not necessarily by the first degree, but it is implied. So they are not the same at all, though both are in similar spider form. Ungoliant, "gloomweaver", would have been much larger and she was certainly more evil and powerful. She was likely a spirit like a Maia, though she had taken on evil form and followed Morgoth. She is said to have eaten herself in the the end...

How is is possible to eat yourself..? Digusting...
Are those spiders immortal btw?

Hmm, this topic seems familiar - I think it was brought up in the other forum. I'll go check and bring back any information if I can.

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Yes it was brought up at the old forum. They are related in some way but it's not really specified if Shelob is actually Ungoliant's daughter. I thought she was at first but I'm not so sure now. Okay let me check something...

According to my encyclopedia she was actually her daughter. It says that when Beleriand was drowned some of Ungoliants decendants escaped across the Blue Mountains. Shelob was her "one great daughter" and she was one of the surviving. They all went to Greenwood the Great which was renamed Mirkwood largely because of them. Shelob obviously left eventually and came to Cirith Ungol.

So it seems like Shelob was her daughter but the spiders of mirkwood were just her ancestors. But it might just be an assumption by the author that Shelob was her actual daughter. I'm gonna try and find something in Tolkien's books...

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Proud Member of the The Evilishy Nazgûl Alliance for World Domination
{Beri}

I never thought about that.........

Hmm, so it was brought up in the previous forum - I tried looking for it, but I forgot which board it was located at - anyway, you provided us with the details already, and you're always the one who so helpfully passes us the concrete info during such debates like these! Thanks!

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Here's what trusty Encyclopedia of Arda had to say:

The evil creature of spider-form who was Melkor's accomplice in the Darkening of Valinor, and who fled with him to Middle-earth. The creatures that infested the Ered Gorgoroth were her offspring and descendants, as was Shelob who dwelt on the borders of Mordor.

So Shelob is Ungoliants duaghter.

Not necessarily, Shelob could also be a descendant of Ungoliant.

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Yes that's the truth...

I read somewhere that Shelob was the youngest daughter of Ungoliant.

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Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?
Why do thy kinsfolk wander afar?
Near is the hour when the Lost should come forth,
And the Grey Company ride from the North.
But dark is the path appointed for thee:
The Dead watch the road that leads to the Sea.

wow i don't wonder. and they are definetely related

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So sorry thats what I meant. I think......

Whoa! How could you tell Shelob was the youngest out of all the spiders Ungoliant could have had. Well if the author emphasizes that fact, but I think we all agree she's related to her some how, right?

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