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Morgoth's Son
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11037		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Eärendil The Mariner [ September 14th, 2006, 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Morgoth's Son
Reading the Book of Lost Tales (BOLT) Part 1, I came across the note that Melko (Tolkien's earliest concept of Morgoth) had a son name Kosomot (in Elvish). Kosomot is none other than Gothmog the Lord of Balrogs.

Kosomot's mother is Ulbandi (or Fluithun) and she is and ogress.

I tried to find any other reference for this matter, but I couldn't find any. If anyone has got more information on this matter, that would be really appreciated.

I'm not sure if this concept was part of the earliest sketches of Tolkien's mythology, but since the character of Gothmog still remained in the later 'Silmarillion', I guess this matter has to be considered.

Thanks,
Eärendil The Mariner
Author:  zimoo [ September 14th, 2006, 10:52 am ]
Post subject: 
That was one of Tolkiens earlier concepts, until he decided that the Valar couldn't have children. Eonwe for example, was originally the son of Manwe and Varda.

Besides, the thought of anyone having a child with Morgoth is sickening :disgust:
Author:  Eä [ September 14th, 2006, 12:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
I see the problems with the Valar having children (it would just end up in chaotic family-relations like with the Greek Gods, lol), but I wonder why he let the Maiar have children then....?
Author:  Darrell [ September 15th, 2006, 4:22 am ]
Post subject: 
It was one of Tolkiens early concepts. One he abandoned later on.

@Eä ~ I wasn't aware he let the maiar have children! Did I miss something there? Because I can think of an example of two maiar having offspring!
Author:  Eä [ September 15th, 2006, 11:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Meh.. Darrell... children.. offspring... children... we're on the same track. :)
My pont is that the descendant of a Maia would have other and greater powers than an ordinary elf (or man), which Lúthien also proved in her fight against the Dark Lord, but too many of these matches, unions between Maiar and lesser races would create a confusing mess of half/quarter/partly Maiar mix. Also I the amount of half-elves are limited, probably for the same reasons.
Those mixed people are always different from others, Tolkien gives them a powerful fate and makes them something special!
Author:  Darrell [ September 15th, 2006, 12:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Whoops, that was supposed to have said I 'can't' think of an example. And I can't.

I have only just though of one maia who did have offspring, but she had a child with an elf, not one of her own kind.
Author:  Eä [ September 15th, 2006, 12:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's alright Darrell, but I would still argue that Maiar possess powers that they would pass on to their offspring, even if they had children with lesser races. Like when the Númenoreans married with "lesser men" (as Tolkien puts it) their lifespan shortened over time when the blood got mixed.. :angel:
Author:  Darrell [ September 15th, 2006, 12:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
I guess so. That is likely to be high on the list of reasons why Luthien was able to do so much to assist Beren on his quest. (makes a change doesn't it, that I almost entirely agree with you on this :D)
Author:  Eä [ September 16th, 2006, 5:00 am ]
Post subject: 
(Well, we can't have us agreeing now, can we! lol)
I must say I am thoroughly convinced Lúthien defeated the Dark Lord first of all because she was so incredibly determined and pure. She had the will to oppose him, and she succeeded also because she was gifted with the powers of her mother. But... hmm... I never really thought of Lúthien as the child of a Maia.

So this partly clashes with what I said earlier concerning people having powers according to their lineage. I don't believe people necessarily have powers matching their ancestors *thinks* though it does seem to apply to many of Tolkien's characters... I believe children of powerful parents might have a better starting point than others, but everyone has the opportunity to reach his/her goal, fulfill his/her dream if he/she tries hard.
But yeah... Morgoth having a son... it would just be.. strange...
Author:  Darrell [ September 16th, 2006, 10:23 am ]
Post subject: 
I think that in Tolkiens world people do have greater abilities due to thier lineage. Though it may be as you say, and that they have a greater starting point. Nonetheless, no normal elf could have rivalled Morgoth as Luthien did, so maybe her lineage offered her some greater ability. but that also could have been that she was determined to win through for love.

And yeah, Morgoth having a son would be odd. But it is ok, because he didn't have one. (in the revised version :P)
Author:  Eä [ September 16th, 2006, 7:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Would you consider Fëanor and his sons "normal" elves? Practically any elf mentioned in the Silmarilion and a lot of those mentioned in the trilogy are High Elves and do have extraodinary powers or do extraordinary deeds. They oppose the Dark Lord as with what means they have.
Author:  Darrell [ September 17th, 2006, 2:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes, they are normal elves. But normal elves of a time when Elves were at their height. Strongest and Wisest. Feanor is an exceptional elf, who was greatest of his kind. I did not see any such abilities in his sons. They were brave, bold, and fought evil with all they could muster, but they were also bound by a vow which made them perform terrible acts. So whilst Feanor could be considered exceptional, but his sons were no more powerful than any of the other High Elves in Beleriand of that time.
Author:  Eärendil The Mariner [ September 19th, 2006, 1:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wow emm err eheheh ... thanks for your replies everyone ... even though it shifted slightly out of topic; but anyways, it was interesting what u Darrell and Eä have said.

Let's keep it going! Heh! :)
Author:  Nienor [ September 19th, 2006, 4:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Perhaps powers do come from lineage, but they don't necessarily come from lineage. Elves may be different from humans, but I know Tolkien tried to keep his work as close to reality as possible. Both my parents are musical, and I think I inherited their ability in that area. But neither of my parents is good at sports, and my brother has a knack for soccer and basketball. So where did his ability come from?
Or...
Maybe an Elf's abilities can be procured through hard work. They live indefinitely, so what's to keep them from spending ages (literally or figuratively) practicing, studying, researching...though it does help to have an amount of talent for the subject of choice.
Author:  Eä [ September 19th, 2006, 5:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thank you Eärendil! :angel:

Darrell wrote:
Yes, they are normal elves. But normal elves of a time when Elves were at their height. Strongest and Wisest.

Very true. The elves in the Silmarillion seem to have another air about them, but I also see the stories in the Sil more as mythologies of Middle-earth (much like the mythologies of our times say about the Greek Gods). And mythologies are.. well, mythological! They are wilder and more colorful that the "real world" (or Third/Fourth Age of Middle-earth in this case!).

To respond to your post Nienor, let me return to what I said about the starting point. I think you're right that many things can be learned, but considering that all elves have an indefinite lifespan, the best among them would be absolutely experts in their particular field. I believe upbringing means a lot. Being born a heir to the throne, it will reflect in every aspect of one's life, so in that sense the abilities, responsabilities and skills needed for that task will be passed on from parent to child.
Author:  Nienor [ September 20th, 2006, 6:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Eä wrote:
Being born a heir to the throne, it will reflect in every aspect of one's life, so in that sense the abilities, responsabilities and skills needed for that task will be passed on from parent to child.


That's a good point! And when I think about it, kingship and other sorts of rules were inherited most of the time, so parents would consider it of utmost importance to prepare their child for rule. Also, perhaps certain family lines were rulers simply because they had extraordinary powers.
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