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This one is for the Loremasters...
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13064
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Author:  Lord Of All [ December 20th, 2006, 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  This one is for the Loremasters...

So as to avoid any confusion in the topics I recommend only the serious Loremasters to this topic. It would be wise to have knowledge of the following:

A thourough understanding of the Music of the Ainur,
To know about the Dagor dagorath (Last battle and the day of Doom),
To have knowledge about the Second Music of the Ainur, when the original Arda is broken and a new one is made without the presence of evil and is completely under the dominion of Men.


---------------------

I thought I would start a topic on Why did Eru create Melkor? Ad did Eru plan for Melkor to become evil? here is my thoughts:

Iluvatar needed Melkor's evil to allow the world and his Children to come to a greater level of understanding. He needed Melkor to be his Instrument in the creation of the 'Second Arda' after the Last battle when the World is broken and the Ainur sing a Second Music. It is this theme that allows this new Arda to become the one which they saw in the Vision that was shown to them by Iluavatar.
For this all to come true Iluvatar needed Melkor to distort the original Arda so that the Second Music 'Would be Played aright'.

Read this quote:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

See? 'He that attempts to alter the designs of Iluvatar will prove but his instrument in creating the Second World'.

And this quote:

"And thou, Melko, shalt see that no theme may be played that has not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempts this shall but aid me in devising things yet more wonderful, which he himself has not imagined. Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the uttermost depths of the dark places come into the design. In the confusion of sound were made pain and cruelty, devouring flame and cold without mercy, and death without hope. Yet he shall see that in the end this redounds only to the glory of the world, and this world shall be called of all the deeds of Ilúvatar the mightiest and most lovely."-The Lost Road

So you see this quote is saying that the more evil Melkor does and becomes, the more it reflects only the Light of Iluvatar.

And to prove that what I have been saying is right read this:

"Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it."

Here it is saying that in the Second Music of the Ainur men shall join in with the Valar. But what Iluvatar has in store for the Elves, who partook in the First Music, is unknown to all save himself.

Another quote:

"Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

Also this brings me to something I doubt anyone but the most analytical will agree with....

If you believe, like I do, That Iluvatar planned everything that was, is, and is to be (fate I suppose), then SHOULD MELKOR BE PITIED???

If Iluvatar intended to create a being that will turn into the prime source of rebellion against himself then surely there was nothing Melkor could do about it. Surely Melkor was Doomed, even before he was created to fall into Darkness by the plan of Iluvatar.
If this is the case then the main source of evils origin stems not from Melkor, but from Eru.
think it over and perhaps you will allow logic to prevail in your conclusion.

Perhaps this is what Iluvatar means here:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."

It means that Iluvatar is saying 'Everything that exists has its uttermost source in me' - hence everthing that phisically, mentally phycoligically exists derives in its most basic form from Eru himself - and that includes evil.
My personal belief is that Iluvatar is not wholly Good, Nor wholly Bad. He simply 'Is' and is the prime source of everything.

----------------------

Your views would be appreciated.

Author:  Aerandir [ December 20th, 2006, 4:12 pm ]
Post subject: 

Absolutely awful, Lord of All. Why in the world do you expect to have a debate when everything is so clearly laid out in your post all ready to refute any argument? I for one don't have any....

I tend to agree with you on all those points, but I don't think that Melkor should be pitied. He did, after all, do all those evil deeds wittingly.

I definitely agree with your assessment of Iluvatar. He is a very selfish god, if you think about it. Everything was done for his own glory. Kind of conceited, really. But, a 'perfect' world would leave no free will for anyone, so...it actually gets kind of complicated when we go into all the free will and pre-destination thing.

Author:  Lord Of All [ December 20th, 2006, 5:33 pm ]
Post subject: 

Forgive me if it was meant in jest but why do you think my post was awful? I thought it was quite well constructed. I just laid my views and quotes in one post and gave my interpretaion of them.

About pitying Melkor...
Before we continue I would ask that you answer me one thing:

Do you believe Eru has planned all that was, is and is to be?

Author:  Aerandir [ December 21st, 2006, 4:01 am ]
Post subject: 

Yes, I do. How else would he know what was in the future for certain unless it was all planned and laid out, and in that case, he's the only one who could do that.

And I was being sarcastic when I said it was awful. I was meaning that you shouldn't expect much argument when your post is constructed to destroy any attempt before it starts. It's actually a fantastic post.

Author:  Lord Of All [ December 21st, 2006, 7:55 am ]
Post subject: 

Ok I guess I should take your latter point as a compiment then.

Anyway back to the dsicussion...

So we both agree that Eru has already planned the history of Ea before he made it.
So therefore he planned Melkor to become evil. Now how Melkor have done anything about it if it was already planned that he will turn evil by Iluvatar, even before he was created? He was doomed to fall before he was made and there was noting he could do about it. True he did cuase much evil in Arda -but he was only doing so becuase Iluvatar planned and wanted him to do so:

"And thou, Melko, shalt see that no theme may be played that has not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempts this shall but aid me in devising things yet more wonderful, which he himself has not imagined. Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the uttermost depths of the dark places come into the design. In the confusion of sound were made pain and cruelty, devouring flame and cold without mercy, and death without hope. Yet he shall see that in the end this redounds only to the glory of the world, and this world shall be called of all the deeds of Ilúvatar the mightiest and most lovely."-The Lost Road

So you see the more evil Melkor did, the more it would reflect the Light of Eru. This alone would be reason enough for Eru to create Melkor.

And also here are he words of Manwe:

"Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been."

'Evil can yet remain evil, but be Good to HAVE BEEN'.

Author:  Eärendil The Mariner [ December 22nd, 2006, 3:37 am ]
Post subject: 

If I may add also my own comments on this article ...

Personally, I found this topic VERY VERY interesting. Good discussion indeed Lord of all.
I agree with what has been said regards Iluvatar knowing that Melkor would have been chosen as the prime source of evil. It is interesting what you said about Eru's Children would achieve
Quote:
a greater level of understanding


But then, a great level of understanding to what? I mean, it might help them in living better lives, but what will happend to the Children of Iluvatar after the Dagor Dagorath?
We don't know whether some of the Children will inhabit the new world (although we know that the Dwarves will help Aule to rebuild the world) after the Second Music of the Ainur. And if they didn't, would the process of sending an evil source to get a tougher kind of people repeat itself?

Quote:
Do you believe Eru has planned all that was, is and is to be?

Absolutely. He is The One, and if he planned for Melkor's uprising and his fall, he must have planned what will happen afterwards (i.e. The Second Music of the Ainur, after the battle of the Dagor Dagorath).

Thanks.

Author:  Lord Of All [ December 22nd, 2006, 4:22 am ]
Post subject: 

Interesting points there Earendil.

After the Dagor dagorath the Ainur sign a Second Great music and with them is the race of Men:

"Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it."

So it becomes apparent that Men are the ones who inhabit the second World. Of the Elves no one knows and as far as is written about Dwarves they only are involved in its rebuilding.

So if you believe Eru has planned everything do you think Melkor should be pitied?

Author:  Eärendil The Mariner [ December 22nd, 2006, 4:35 am ]
Post subject: 

Remarkable points there Lord of All. Thanks for clarifying that.

Quote:
So if you believe Eru has planned everything do you think Melkor should be pitied?

Tough question. Well, as I read the Silmarillion, I never showed any pity for him. Not even whilst reading it for a second time.
But as you raise an issue such as this, I think, it is not fair upon him that he was used as a "tool" by Iluvatar, for the benefit of others.

So in this respect, I might pity him abit (although to a very very limited extent. The harm he did was too big for one to think he should be pitied). But in the context of being used by The One, yes, I do pity him abit.

Thanks.

Author:  Lord Of All [ December 22nd, 2006, 10:42 am ]
Post subject: 

Yes indeed it is hard to pity him. After all he did all the evil. But then I think to myself 'Well Eru had planned him to do it, for the better of his own creation, so really its Eru's fault'.

Author:  Eärendil The Mariner [ December 22nd, 2006, 12:29 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
so really its Eru's fault'

I agree. But then again, within a limited context. Because he did this to help the Children achieve a
Quote:
greater level of understanding

Author:  Lord Of All [ December 22nd, 2006, 4:20 pm ]
Post subject: 

If you do an evil to achieve a good does that make the end result still good or Void?

If I stole a packet of sweets to give to someone is that good, even though the end result is meant to be good?

Interesting points though Earendil.

Author:  Velcayelde Elentiriel [ December 22nd, 2006, 6:25 pm ]
Post subject: 

VERY interesting topic, Lord Of All.
I would say that evil is necessary so that all beings can understand how good we have it most of the time. In other words, if everything was good, all the time, it would not seem special and we would take it for granted and become ungrateful, like spoiled children, always wanting more. But with evil for contrast, we realize how good good is, if that makes sense.
On the sub-argument of predestination, I think Eru probably knows everything that has happened and is going to happen, but I don't believe he planned every detail of the life of the universe. You could argue that it was all laid out in the music, but even then the Ainur would all have had a part in the planning. However, I think that even if Eru does know everything that happens, he does not completely control it, and we "lesser beings" do have free will to at least some degree. To demonstrate with a quote:
(This is just after Aulë creates that Dwarves)

"And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'
"Then Aulë answered:
'I did not desire such lordship. I desired things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Ëa, which thou hast caused to be...[etc.]'...But Ilúvatar had compassion upon Aulë and his desire, because of his humility; and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and were afraid, and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: 'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they wold not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.' " (From The Silmarillion)

I think it is evident that Aulë was thrying to create creatures with free will, and that is what the Children of Ilúvatar are supposed to be.

Author:  Lord Of All [ December 22nd, 2006, 6:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

So you are saying that Eru left Melkor to evil becuase of his 'Free will' policy?

Author:  mephiston, lord of death [ December 22nd, 2006, 9:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Lord Of All wrote:
If you do an evil to achieve a good does that make the end result still good or Void?

If I stole a packet of sweets to give to someone is that good, even though the end result is meant to be good?

Interesting points though Earendil.
This is all about freedom of choice, a philosophy degree would eb handy here :-D
I believe that melkors evil actions restricted th efreedom of others. Any good that is attined through it therefore is th eproduct of evil and is tainted somewhat. Also, without good evil cannot exist and vice versa in thsi imperfect world so that we must defien what we feel is good and evil, with doubtless variances. However, according to tolkien, the actions of all beings redounds to the glory of Eru who is the sorrt of supreme creator so in that respect I suppos ethe Eru isnt as selfish as u seem to view him, as he only seeks to obtain some recogniton for all his labours.

I al;so agree with Aerandir, ur first post seems geared to stop debate rather than encourage it.
Hope thsi is helpful :explode:

Author:  Lord Of All [ December 23rd, 2006, 6:21 am ]
Post subject: 

Believe me Eowynsbestmate, I am not saying that Melkor TRIEd to do any good actions through his evil. I simply mean that his evil was good to have been in the grand scheme of things:

"Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been."

I admit that in Arda Melkor was the Prime source of Evil. But unknowingly to Melkor he in fact only promoting the Light of Eru:

"And thou, Melko, shalt see that no theme may be played that has not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempts this shall but aid me in devising things yet more wonderful, which he himself has not imagined. Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the uttermost depths of the dark places come into the design. In the confusion of sound were made pain and cruelty, devouring flame and cold without mercy, and death without hope. Yet he shall see that in the end this redounds only to the glory of the world, and this world shall be called of all the deeds of Ilúvatar the mightiest and most lovely."-The Lost Road

(Ps: I thought I would just get all my views out in the first post ready)

Author:  Eärendil The Mariner [ December 23rd, 2006, 7:15 am ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
If you do an evil to achieve a good does that make the end result still good or Void?

If I stole a packet of sweets to give to someone is that good, even though the end result is meant to be good?


Ah, you got me there! ;) hehe ...

The example of the sweets is a very good one. I think there has to be a balance between "Eru's fault" of using a Vala as a solution for his Enlightenment and Melkor's harm.

But then, the way I see it is that, it all boils down to the fact that it was Eru's will and intention to transfer evil into Melkor's mind so as to enable the Vala to act in an evil way; which is as you pointed out:-
Quote:
Eru had planned him to do it

So basically, Melkor was being used as a puppet.

So, bringing up your point, Lord of All, regard it was Eru's fault for the harm done to the world, I agree with it the more.

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