one of the things i love about the the story of beren and luthien (or b&l for short) is the way tolkien subverted traditional fairy stories. for instance - whereas in rapunzel the prince climbs up his love's hair, luthien climbs down her own hair; and whereas the prince normally rescues the princess from the top of the tower, luthien saves beren from the bottom (dungeon) of the tower.

there's something about subverting traditions and confounding expectations that's always really appealed to me, and amid all the beauty and tragedy of the story, the idea of beren and luthien's apparent role reversal still raises a smile.

it's been a while since i read the sil, so i can't think of any other examples offhand. anybody else remember any?

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I never really thought about it that way, but you're right. That's really cool.

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Yeah same here.. never thought about that. But I've always thought it's really cool how Lúthien is so powerful and helps Beren and that it's really unusual..
Good point there eowyn

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This is one of the few love stories I actually like. I really admire how Luthien is strong, but she keeps her feminity intact, something I need to work on.

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its said to be loosly based on tolkeins relationship with his wife.

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Yes, Edith was Tolkien's Luthien. Their tombs say "Luthien" and "Beren". But most of you already knew that.

I can't think of any other messed-with fairytales really, because I never thought of it that way. But that's really cool! Another thing that's sort of related in LOTR is the relationship between Faramir and Eowyn. Instead of the warrior guy and less war-like girl, Eowyn is the more war-like I guess and defends her country with everything she has. Faramir would rather live a peaceful life. Here, again, Tolkien's going against the norm.

~Iri

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yeah that's true. And that's also a reason why they make such a good couple I think. It's unusual.

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Yeah, I think I might have read that before, too. It makes sense, after all.

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I can't really imagine Tolkien's wife dancing in the woods, but whatever gave him his inspiration...

I never thought of the subverting fairy tale characteristics... and certainly never applied it to Tolkien's work. However, there are so many parallels in his work to myths and legends (which has been debated in depth so many times here!) so I guess I just noticed the traditonal ones...

Actually I have never heard of the tradition of subverting... do you have other examples, not necessarily from Tolkien but just in general of authors using it?

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Lol, Ea. I've never thought about a lot of things that have been pointed out on this forum. I hadn't thought of the subverted fairy tale until eowyn mentioned it.

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this is from the biography by humphrey carpenter: "on days when he could geet leave, he and edith went for walks in the countryside. near roos, they found a small wood with an undergrowth of hemlock, and there they wandered. tolkien recalled of edith as she was at this time: 'her hair was raven, her skin clear, her eyes bright, and she could sing - and dance.' she sang and danced for him in the wood, and from this came..the tale of the mortal man beren who loves the immortal elf-maiden luthien tinuviel, whom he first sees dancing among hemlock in a wood"

tolkien also wrote this in a letter to his son, christopher: "she was (and knew she was) my luthien...for ever (especially when alone) we still met in the woodland glade and went hand in hand many times to esape the shadow of imminent death befor our last parting"

he really loved her, didn't he? it's so beautiful.



i recently read a book called the book of lost things by john connolly in which little red riding hoods sleeps with the wolf and together they spawn a new breed of wolf-men, the seven dwarfs are communists, sleeping beauty is something akin to a vampire, and the knight in shining armour is gay. that enough subversion for you?

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Thanks for the source, eowyn. I think that I've got the Humphrey Carpenter or whatever, but I'm not sure.

And that's just disturbing about Little Red Riding Hood and the Wolf.

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if you do have it, those quotes are from pages 134-135 (i cut quite a bit out of the second quote, so you might want to read the whole thing).

and yeah, i was a bit disturbed by that too. good book though.

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This reminds me of Shrek or other parodical versions of old stories... would they be considered subversions too, because in that case I do know it!!

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Lol, Ea. Shrek? I hadn't even thought of that to go with eowyn's statement.

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