I have heard arguments from various LoTR fans that claim Harry Potter plagurises work DIRECTLY from Tolkeins books. I would like to hear your beliefs on this, and whther you believe that LoTR is plagurism-free.

I am new to the forum so am not sure if I have posted this in the right area

Yes Leo this appears to be the correct thread to post in, welcome to A-U by the way

I believe that the view that Rowling has copied things from Lord of the Rings is very true. There are so many examples of this within the stories. Think for example of Dobby and Gollum, The Whomping Willow and Old man Willow, the Dementors and the Nazgul. Although they may not be direct references to LOTR, there are many ideas that clearly stem from the work of Tolkien though

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Clearly? See this is where I have problems. Do you think that Tolkein was the first creator of a small 'dobby-like' creature, or a walking tree? Now I am not saying there arent similarities, but I am saying that thinking Rowling used characters directly from LoTR is a bit naive.

Firsly welcome to AU Leo.

To be honest the agruments can go on forever if you have passionate and knowledgable enough parties either side. The view of Rowling copying directly from Tolkien is a bit naive as you said. But the similarities in both Rowling's descriptions and the filmakers interpretations of Rowlings works are too close for comfort for HP fans to bluntly deny.

The arguements hinting that Tolkien himself used other materials other than the inspirations he took from his love of Language and Anglo Saxon is a rather retired one.

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I agree, but I would like to debate over the similarities between certain HP and LoTR characters

Nazgul & Dementors - As far as I can tell the only thing the same is the fact they wear cloaks
Ents and Whomping Willow - Trees that can move, the WW cant talk or walk
Gollum and Dobby - Both small and with pointy ears (?)

There are probably more but from what I can see, these are the only similarities. Such creatures were devised of hundreds of years ago and if such similarities are percieved as plagurism then surely every book/film is a plagurist.

Please inform me if I am completely missing out the obvious similarities

I see your prospective and can understand your fustration of Harry Potter having being put to the knife over plagurism claims however am reluctant, as I am sure many people are, to simply think it is a vague connection. When I first read some of the Harry Potter works and certainly when I watched the film I was struck by the similarities, and as a big TLOTR fan I really found anger in Rowlings works and was pointing the sword of plagurism in the direction of anything connected to HP. The obvious simillarites are as you mentioned Old Man Willow/Wamping Willow(one of the most obvious) , Doby/Gollum (Not only the appearance, but also the simmilar voice artist styles and the Digital created, simmilar to how Gollum was created, so I belive) and the massive one are the Nazgul/Dementors (Carbon copy in my view)

Im weary of making this a large debated as my HP knowledge is not what It should be really, and by the way you phrased your prior post, your TLOTR knowledge may not be up to the AU standard 8)

But I could be wrong

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You arent wrong, Ive watched the films and started reading the books but couldnt really get into them. I cant comment on Old Man Willow because I dont really know whohe is, unless just another ent.

As for the Digitally created bit, I dont see how thats relavant. As far as I can tell, the only way to make a non-human creature (as with dobby, gollum, ents, dementors, nazgul and many many more) they have to be digitally created. In terms of the similar voice styles again I cant reaaly see how that is plagurism. As far as I can tell, Rowling had limited input into the films. They are quite different in many aspects of the books, ideas of the writers. Also, the first LOTR was released in December 2001 and the first film where dobby makes an appearance November 2002, 11 months later. Dont films take more than 11 months?

As for the dementors I can see the similarites but believe they stop at the appearance

First of all a very warm welcome to the A-U forum
I think that Rowling did copy a few of Tolkien's ideas, but of course she changes those ideas and influenced them by her style. You can see some similarities between the stories, but I've always found it wrong to compare the stories, because Rowling has got a different style than Tolkien and she's modified the ideas she has copied a lot and has given them her style.

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Just to pick up on that, The filming process of TLOTR trilogy was such that New Line shot all three flims in principle photography in 15 months, so in fact a sinlge film does not take anywhere near 11 months. Unless the principle photography was a shamble and a year was needed for Pick-ups. Also the digital process of the creation of Gollum involved a technique called motion capture, developed by WETA for the TLOTR films. This saves a lot of hardship in in digital world by giving the animation team the movement of the character and them only needing to replace the motion capture image with the real thing. This process if most likely to be used for Doby as well, and there is nothing wrong with using a filming technique from another film, it happens all of the time, however that coupled with the similarity of the voice and appearance for some will put the nail in the coffin.

Again Im not up with my HP knowledge but the Dementors, could you please give me an outline of their purpose in HP, other than the appearance, which is basically the same, I cant see any other similarities between them and the Nazgul

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First we are getting a little bit off-topic. We were talking about similarities between the books, and as the voice of Dobby and Gollum are only known in films Rowing hasn't plagurised this from Tolkein - he would have had no input into Gollums voice. Also the digitally created bit again does not prove Harry Potter ideas are plagurised from Tolkein's works.

Dementors are cratures that guard the Wizard prison, Azkaban. They are dark creatures that feed on the happiness of people, and administor a 'kiss' to utterly destroy someone - sucking their sole out.
Although dark and evil creatures they were trusted to guard dangerous prisoners, but in book 5 they go back to Lord Voldermort when he regains power. Dementors, I believe, can fly themselves.

Servants of a Dark Lord, The Nazgul serve Sauron and Sauron alone, one similarity, Guardian's of a Dark territory, The Nazgul are defenders of the Minas Morgul as well as Angmar, aslo Guardians of Sauron's realm. Also this is a small one, the Dementor's 'kiss' you describe could be linked to the use of the Morgul Blade of the Witch King, the same purpose achieved in a different form I also think that the Dementors remind me of the spectres in some of the works of Phillip Pullman, if you are famillier with his works at all?

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The name seems familiar but I cant say I am. Did he write Northern Lights? The only possible comeback I can give is towards the guarding of a dark area. Although yes, Dementors do guard a prison, which is dark, they do it for the benefit of good.

Pullman did write Nothern Lights, the spectres feature in the Northern Lights and furthermore in the 'His Dark Materials' Trilogy, along with 'The Amber Spyglass' and 'Subtle Knife' If you read in to the spectres some simillarities can be found.

So far I think its fair to say we have established concrete connections between the Nazgul and Dementors, although I have learnt that the Dementors gaurd a Dark Area for the benefit of good, Is that for the good of all 'Free peoples'? if you will, or for what the Dementors see as good? As the Nazgul, becuase they are servants to the will of Sauron see everything they do for their master as good.

After much experience dealing and examining both sides of the coin during the TLOTR boom there have been countless people who have been slain by my word on such a topic, not nessacarily on this forum but on forums been and gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_anal ... rry_Potter

A useful tool I have found recently is a link on the Wikipedia site if you care to check it out and comment, it investigates other literay influences to Rowling's works

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Dementors guard the prison as it provides them with fresh souls with which to feed off.

Rowling maintains that she hadn't read The Hobbit until after she completed the first Harry Potter novel (though she had read The Lord of the Rings as a teenager) and that any similarities between her books and Tolkien's are "fairly superficial".

I noticed that, and I suppose it comes down to do you believe her or not.

http://www.spookybug.com/origins/lotr.html is a website I sometimes look at regarding Tolkeins 'inspirations'. Is there any difference between what you believe Rowling is doing and what Tolkein did?

I think I would put faith in the common terminologies used, Rowling and plagiarism, Tolkien and inspirations. For now, the time HP has not reached the legendary status of TLOTR, Rowling will be heavily scrutinised for copying many other sources. In contrast Tolkien, whose legacy can be found to today in new works and authors with Rowling being one of many. One day Harry Potter may gain a great legacy of its own and many will talk about TLOTR being a great inspiration of Rowlings work. However this may happen, it is of my and many other peoples view that HP will never eclipse the work of Tolkien, and I am sure you are wise enough to admit the obvious and that it never will.
Many world renown film/book critics' have in the past described TLOTR as the 'the greatest films of our era' and 'the trilogy will not soon, if ever, find its equal' in relation to the film. And as Im sure you know TLOTR was the most read book in the 20th Century after the Bible. The list of great achievements is vast, but I hope what I said previously is enough to put the issue to rest.

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Basically there is no doubt that the whomping willow was inspired by old man willow, who in essence is just a willow tree, but similarly to the whomping willow it attacks when it feels necessary, It takes Merry and Pippin at one point.

It is clear through the physical appearance of the dementors that they stem from Nazgul ie. no faces, the way they move, the cloaks etc.

Dobby is pretty much exactly the same as Gollum. He is bound by a master as gollum is to his master [the ring and frodo] he wears old rags, has a very willowy build and has the same sort of skin and feel about him.

There is so much, too much in fact, copied to state the Rowling is original.

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