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Mortals going to Valinor
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15222		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Elven Archer [ May 13th, 2007, 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Mortals going to Valinor
Well I have been reading alot of fanfictions recently, of stories where the mortals/humans do not go to Valinor. It makes the whole fiction very depressing and is really annoying me. The mortals should be able to go to Valinor or otherwise Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli, Sam and such wouldn't have been able to go. But anyway it's been really annoying me in the stories where Aragorn and others have not gone to Valinor once they die. Because I think they definatly(especially Estel) would. What do you guys think?
Author:  Darrell [ May 16th, 2007, 2:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Only the ringbearers (and potentially Gimli) have been allowed into Valinor as mortals. After all, it is the land of the immortal, and those allowed to go had done such great a service to Arda, that they were rewarded.

Allowing mortals to go to Valinor would go against what Tolkien wrote, and is therefore something you should not put into a fanfic.

If mortals were allowed to go to Valinor, Numenor would not have even existed. All the Edain would have gone to Valinor instead. And even if Numenor was founded, the Ar-Pharazon, and most of the Numenoreans would not have been lost, and Elendil and his sons would not have been forced to flee to Middle-earth.
Author:  Elven Archer [ May 16th, 2007, 3:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hmmm.....but what about Gimli? That is not against what Tolkien wrote, and Sam also was not a ringbearer, but he too went to Valinor. Even if you were a ringbearer like Frodo, what difference does it make? You are still mortal. Didn't Elros also go to Valinor (I could be wrong though.) He was a mortal too. :confused:
Author:  Darrell [ May 16th, 2007, 5:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
It is suggested that Gimli went to Valinor. Only in some places does it mention he went with Legolas, to Valinor, but nowhere does it confirm that he actually stood upon the ground there. (Though it is said that Galadriel herself vouched for him to be allowed to come and set foot there)

Sam was a ringbearer, though only for a brief time. Which is why he was allowed to go.

Elros did not go to Valinor. He chose to be mortal, and was set as king of the houses of the Edain, and his land was numenor, in the midst of the great sea.

As for what differrence it makes, I assume you are talking about lifespan? With regards to that, no one knows, though it is suggested by some, and is my belief, that your life time would be extended living in those lands, but eventually you would die.
Author:  Eruhin [ May 16th, 2007, 6:08 pm ]
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But it is said that the light and splendour of Valinor would be too much for mortals so they would be consumed. As a result it would be pointless to go to Valinor for it is not the land that makes the peolpe who live there immortal. The people just are immortal.
Author:  Elven Archer [ May 17th, 2007, 1:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Oh okay. Well we have no confirmation that mortals did not go to Valinor do we? (I'm really not meaning to have a debate here guys, I'm just really bugged by this! ;) I mostly agree with everything that you guys have said.)

Sam was a ringbearer for what....a day? But so was Gollum/Smeagol. And so were the seven dwarf lords and the nine men. So would they get to go as well? What does a ringbearer have anything to do with it? It was an evil ring that Frodo/Sam/Bilbo bore...not a good one like the Elven rings.

*sigh* Too bad Tolkien isn't alive to tell us all about it! :P
Author:  Darrell [ May 17th, 2007, 2:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes, we do have confirmation. Tolkien writes that no mortals (besides the stated) went, or can go to, Valinor. The only others that reached there was the Great Armament, which was destroy the moment Ar-Pharazon touched the ground.

Sam was a bearer for a very short time, but he bore the burden none the less. Gollum died, so he could not reach valinor. besides, he bore the ring with evil, rather than good intentions.

The Seven were all killed, and the rings consumed by dragons, or taken by Sauron. The nine were destroyed at the end of Sauron, and were evil anyway, so they would not have been admitted.

They bore the ring to it's destroction, and had not the intention of keeping it. It was their honour and reward for doing so that they could reach Valinor.

And perhaps you forget who lives in Valinor. the Valar of Iluvatar are the rulers of that land, and have powers far beyond that of any others. If they do not wish for someone to enter their realm, they will not let it happen.
Author:  Elven Archer [ May 17th, 2007, 2:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
(Where does Tolkien say that? Is it in the Silmarillion? I need to go check that out again.)

Eh....I still don't see what being a ringbearer has to do with anything....it dosn't make you any different than any other mortal. Also if could smeagol have gone if he was alive? Since he was a ringbearer. That's what the Halls of Mandos are....they're in Valinor.

And also, Gandalf tells Pippin that "End? No it does not end here..." and explains going west to Pip. Why would he tell Pippin that if he couldn't go anyway?

I really need to read the Silmarillion again! :P
Author:  Darrell [ May 17th, 2007, 5:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
(I cannot say where exactly he says it. If he doesn't say it directly, then it is implied in many places. If it wasn't true, then a large number of stories, and happenings would not have occurred.)

Being a ringbearer has everything to do with it! I beleive that is explained in the Return of the King.

My memory may be faulty, but I do not remember that being said in the books. There my have been some point, but not at the time it was said in the films. And he would have said that to Pippin to keep his courage up.

I do not think smeagol could have gone. he became an 'evil' creature (though misunderstood), and used the ring for his own ends. Not with any intention for good.

The Halls of Mandos are in Valinor, but that is a different matter entirely. Elves definately go there. but it seems to me at times that Men do not go there in the same respect. I would not count going to the Halls of mandos as going to valinor. After all, they have no choice, and they can never leave. (the one exception being Beren. (amongst mortals))
Author:  ~RinielAranel~ [ May 17th, 2007, 8:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hmm...I think the whole ringbearer thing is important, but not in the "Because I'm a rigbearer I get a shiny ticket to Valinor." I'm just hypothesizing here, but I think if you'rre not immortal, you must have a very good reason to go to Valinor that will 'get you in'. Gimli's was, apparently, friendship with Legolas. And since Sam and Frodo both bore the ring - and incredibly difficult, draining task - they were granted entrance into Valinor as a reward and as a healing for their wounds. (Especially Frodo.)

As I said, that's totally just my hypothesis. :P I'm sure there are others wiser than me who actually know what's going on.
Author:  Elven Archer [ May 17th, 2007, 11:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alright I was reading up on this earlier, a few quotes from Tolkiens letters...anyway, I think the thing is....

That anyone can go with an elf to Valinor. If they are "Elf friends" As in Frodo, Sam, Gimli, Aragorn, etc. Anyone who is an elf friend can go with an elf to Valinor. These mortals can live in Valinor, but they will eventually die (which is really sad) and go to he halls of mandos.

That's pretty much what I got. But please don't bash me if I'm wrong! :)

(Personally I'm changing it to my own fannon (not cannon, which would be the original story) because I think it's quite sad they don't get to go.....so in my own little world they do! :))
Author:  Fíriel_18190 [ May 28th, 2007, 2:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, mortals can't just come to Valinor, because it is not inside the world of mortals. Only the elves can find a way to get to Valinor and all the mortals who have come to Valinor from the beginning of the third age were in the company of elves.
But I think it's good that the mortals don't linger inside the world after they've died and that people don't really know where the mortals go after they've died, because it is their destiny to just visit the world for a short time according to Iluvatar.. and I dunno, it kinda makes sense to me.
Author:  Darrell [ May 29th, 2007, 12:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Your hypothesis in your first post was correct Firiel.

And only a select few mortals travelled to valinor. As you said, as 'elf friends'. But only a very few ever attained that. most of those as did still died within middle-earth.
Author:  Fíriel_18190 [ May 29th, 2007, 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
^
err what do you mean, my first post?? I only posted one post in this thread.. sorry, but I'm kinda confused :confused2:
Author:  Darrell [ May 30th, 2007, 6:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Whoops, sorry. Confusion there. I meant in Riniel's post. My bad.
Author:  Fíriel_18190 [ May 30th, 2007, 6:33 am ]
Post subject: 
^
oh ok.. no worries :)
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