Thought I would just give an account of the first catagorising of the Elves to those who don't know it:

The Quendi (as opposed to Men known as Atani) split into three groups on the westward journey, The Noldor, the Teleri and the Vanyar.

The Vanyar were led by Ingwe, High King of all the Elves and they dwell always with Manwe and Varda upon Taniquetil.

The Noldor also came to Valinor and were led by Finwe.

The Teleri were the greatest host and were led by Elwe (Elu Thingol) but becuase he was ensnared by Melian the host split in two. One part tried to find Elwe there lord whilst the other part took Elwe's brother, Olwe, for there lord and set sail with Orome into the west and established there dwelling between Valinor and the Great sea in Aman (Valinor is only the name for the land contained within the Pelori, not for the whole continent of Aman) there chief city was Alqualonde I believe.

The Elves that made it to Valinor are called the Caliquendi (Elves of Light). The Caliquendi call the Teleri which turned aside on the rode or became lost the Úmanyar.

The Elves which never went on the westward journey are known as the Avari, The Unwilling. Some of the Avari were captured by Melkor to make the Orcs.

Both the Avari and the Úmanyar are called the Elves of Darkness, becuase they never saw Valinor.

The Elves which after found there King Elwe, Thingol, established the realm of Beleriand and became known as the Sindar, the Grey Elves (though Thingol is counted amoung the Calaquendi even though he has never seen Valinor).

The name 'Eldar' was at first a name given to the Elves that went on the Westward journey, and that name was given to them by Orome. However in after years all the Elves, Calaquendi, Úmanyar and Avari were known by that name.

When the Noldor were exiled from Valinor Finarfin abadoned Feanor and Finarfin and turned back and was pardoned by the Valar, and his host of the Noldor came to settle of the Ilse of Eressea and he became king of all the Noldor after Gil-Galad (the last king of the Noldor of Middle-earth, and indeed the last king of Elves in Middle-earth) fell in the Battle of the Last Alliance.

The Sindar developed different speech to the Calaquendi of Valinor but I am not sure if the sub-groups of the Elves of Valinor, in turn developed there own seperate speeches apart from eachother.
Of the Avari no further Tale tells.

This is my entire knowledge of the original catagorisation of the Elves. Any corrections please don't hesitate to make.

Interesting article Lord of all, as usual .

Now how about writing an article about the different Elven tongues used by the various Elven groups? If you want, I can help you out.

Thanks,
Eärendil The Mariner

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Well I have only recently been bothered to actually start paying attention to Elven Lore. I cannot say I know much about there languages. What did you have in mind?

Well maybe expand on the idea of the histories of the Elven tongues and their spreading and influences throughout each group ... for example: a detailed analyses on the Sindarin Language is brought by Christopher Tolkien in 'Unfinished Tales' ; regarding Silvan Elves and their slightly varied language from the other Elves of Lorien. etc etc

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I am not sure how it is possible to expand on this subject.
The Calaquindi Elves made it to Valinor while the Sindar did not or would not. As such there languages were sundered from those of the west (hence QUENYA for the Calaquendi and SINDARIN for the sindar).

Of the Avari we know nothing.

Well, give me a day, and I'll come up with some research that might prove possible to do such thing (if you agree obviously)

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Ok. I feel the need to correct some of the point you made there, because some of the facts you have given are incorrect. [Also, you need to use 'their' rather than 'there' in many cases in your post ]

Below is you post, Lord of all. My corrections are bracketed and in bold, next to the point that they refer to.



Ok, I think I picked up in all the incorrect info. please correct me if you feel i am wrong, or point out something I missed.

[*denotes a 'there' which should be 'their'. Sorry, but I felt it necessary to point that out. I'm a bit of a grammar freak sometimes ]

I was rather concentrating on the content rather than the finer structure...

So was I. That was why I felt the need to make some corrections, as some of the things you wrote were incorrect. I would have left it if you had got all the information correct. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I like to see people get facts from Tolkiens world right. It bugs me otherwise...

Great idea to write an article on the history of the elves. Personally I like a short a fact-based overview.
Lord of All You made a nice outline and this thread could be used to perfect that information with the knowledge, corrections and additions other people might have.

Darrell does actually give valid corrections, which you asked for in your fist post, and he did spend some time on it, so IMHO I think he deserves more feedback from you regarding the content as well. If the two of you disagree with each other you should present your views in a professional discussion on the topic.

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Ok firstly you have made 1 or 2 valid corrections. However you make many which are not:

The Teleri which sought to find Elwe DID establish Beleriand, not just Doriath:

[i]In after days he became a king renowned, and his people were all the Eldar of Beleriand; the Sindar they were named, the Grey-elves, the Elves of the Twilight and King Greymantle was he, Elu Thingol in the tongue of that land[/i]. The Silmarillion

So as we see the Sindar (grey Elves) were not just Elves of Doriath but of all Beleriand - King Thingol rules all of Beleriand.

Secondly you are both right and wrong about the term 'Eldar'. It was at first a name given to ALL Elves, but afterwards only those who made it West (I used it the other way around).

"And Oromë loved the Quendi, and named them in their own tongue Eldar, the people of the stars; but that name was after borne only by those who followed him upon the westward road."
Th Silmarillion

You are correct about Elwe making it to Valinor but I worded it incorrectly. What I meant was he never did the Westward journey to its end with the others. He only did it once with Finwe and Ingwe to see what it was like to report it to the other Elves back in the East.

Lastly about the paragraph you do not understand:

What I was saying was that Finarfin became King of the Noldor in Valinor becuase he turned back from Feanor's rebellion and went to dwell in Eressea. Then at the end of the second Age he bacame king of all the Noldor becuase Gil Galad (the last king of the Noldor in Middle-earth) fell in the last Alliance.

Also the part where you say 'Only a small part of the Teleri remaind behind', and 'The Elves which saw the two trees' are additional information and not corrections. Becuase I am only talking genrally about the very beginning of Eldar history when I said 'The Elves which made it to Valinor' I thought it neeless to say 'and saw the Two Trees' becuase I thought it was obvious.

Hope I have clarrified a few things.

Well, I've were getting to that side of noticing spelling mistakes, Lord of all, you made another mistake in your third post of this thread.



Calaquindi should be turned into Calaquendi.

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As I say I think faster than I type. At least the spelling mistakes do not prevent you from understanding what I am saying.

Point 1: The quote says only that the elves lived in Beleriand. They were 'all the Eldar of Beleriand'. That means they were the only Eldar in Beleriand at that time. They did not establish Beleriand. Thingol ruled the Realm of Doriath, and Doriath only.

Here are some links from the Encyclopedia of Arda which prove my point:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/thingol.html
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/beleriand.html

Point 2: Ok, so perhaps it has been referred to that all elves are Eldar, but in most cases, it refers solely to those that started the journey. I think we can both claim to be right on this one. No further arguement necessary

Point 3: The paragraph on finarfin makes more sense now thanks for tidying that up.

Point 4: Those may be additional bits of information, but they are important ones, especially the one with the two trees. Many of the elves who eventually made the journey to Valinor did not see the light of the trees, and were therefore not Calaquendi. The whole point of the Calaquendi is that they saw the light of the two trees. Whilst not being a correction, it is still a vital piece of information.

I think the only point we are disagreeing on is about how much of Beleriand Thingol ruled. I can assure you he ruled it all. When the princes of the Noldor came over after there exile from Valinor they established smaller realms within Belerinad. It is true that Thingol did only seem to have true power over Doriath and within the Girdle of Melian but as we can see, he was officially King of all Beleriand:

In after days he became a king renowned, and his people were all the Eldar of Beleriand; the Sindar they were named, the Grey-elves, the Elves of the Twilight and King Greymantle was he, Elu Thingol in the tongue of that land. The Silmarillion

'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?'
The Silmarillion

'Beware therefore how you princes of the West bear yourselves; for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word. Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests, or who seek me in great need'.
The Silmarillion

"They are called the Sindar, the Grey-elves of starlit Beleriand; and although they were Moriquendi, under the lordship of Thingol and the teaching of Melian they became the fairest and the most wise and skilful of all the Elves of Middle-earth."
The Silmarillion

As we can see, Thingol was Lord of all Beleriand. The original Teleri started to inhabit Beleriand first before any other of the peoples of earth, and thus they Established Beleriand, or at least the beginnings of it.

I have looked at the links you gave me and neither avail you. The one about Thingol actually states in the 'Notes' section that he was Lord of Beleriand and he made his realm in central Beleriand with Melian, and the other one does not actually state anything of use to our topic.

Yep. I have to agree with this Lord of All. I think Thingol DID have control over all Beleriand, considering the Noldor where all in Aman. Also, it is said somewhere in 'The Silmarillion', that Thingol was not at all happy when the Exiled Noldor came back to Beleriand and took up realms for themselves.

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