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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: September 11th, 2011, 8:49 pm 
Gondorian
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I never implied it was lazy or bad writing. :D It was just an observation...hehe. Although, your theory is probably right. Heck, I can't talk. When I write fantasy stories and become legendary, then I'll have the right to poke at Tolkien, but until then....*sits in a corner*


Last edited by Idril Tinúviel on September 15th, 2011, 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: September 15th, 2011, 8:34 pm 
Gondorian
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Further evidence for Not Really All That Equal Elves: in elf/mortal relationship, it is always a female elf giving up everything. Why exactly? I don't know the exact reasoning behind it. However, in the one and truly canon male elf/female mortal pairing the woman, Andreth, doesn't even get a say in the decision whether to continue or not. Aegnor just decides for both of them - without, it seems - even telling her why, leaving the woman in question rather bitter. Obviously


Well, what exactly does the man have to give up? After all, man isn't immortal, and its not like they can own a million dollar castle in the Ye Olde days of Middle-Earth... :teehee: or any time in Middle-Earth, for that matter. Whereas elves have immortal and beauty and fame and blah blah blah. I'm sure if it was a male elf/female mortal who fell in love, it would be the male elf who would get his.

However I agree with you about Avari, they sort of just fall off. If Tolkien was trying to make them come off as weak, I think he already did that job with the Teleri. Honestly, they struck me as impulsive, almost child-like, and not at all Elvish. I had trouble seeing them as the fair, wise beings elves in general are made out to be as they constantly changed their minds about where they wanted to go. :P I laughed out loud when I read that they decided to stop IN THE MIDDLE of their journey to Aman and decided to stay on an island. I mean, I know they were fascinated by a lot of...things along the way, but still. Oh well, at least it made them well-known among Middle-Earth, hopefully. :P

And heh, also agree about no elvish queens. I suppose Tolkien is a man, I mean A MAN, who went to war, and I don't suspect he met many women during his war...:teehee: So maybe that plated they idea in his head that only men can take on such
tasks, or maybe it was an involuntary instinct. :P

By the way...wasn't this only suppose to be Ten things we hated about Tolkien? :teehee:


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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: September 17th, 2011, 4:29 pm 
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I very much agree that Tolkien couldn't write female characters. Not the believable flesh and blood, interesting female characters at least. And I think that I'm most annoyed with this in the major female characters like Lúthien.. Eowyn.. I suppose we can't blame him for Lúthien and the rest of the female characters in the Sil because the Sil is written like mythologies.. But Eowyn!! Eowyn.. The shieldmaiden who wants to fight like a man but ends up being tamed by the intellectual healer. You may claim that she goes through a major development from being a child who doesn't know how to articulate or deal with her feelings (fangirling over Aragorn, teenage pouting over having a curfew when her brother doesn't etc.) to taking fate into her own hands and take control of her own life. However, I really, really think that we're missing a lot from this story. She becomes very much a Mary Sue, mostly because she is described in 3rd person and her feelings and actions are either admired from a distance or clumsily analysed from other male characters around her. But none of them understand a woman! Now Tolkien never claimed to understand women.. and LotR isn't a psychological drama but when Eowyn is the only female character (of importance) in LotR I think she deserves a fairer treatment.

And also, I'm glad you mention the odd rules of succesion thing the elves have going on. I always wondered about it because yes elves are immortal. Imagine being a prince and the heir to a kingdom - and knowing that you may never become the king. On the other hand, the First and Second Age were dangerous times and elves do die in war so perhaps it's quite clever to have heirs to take over. So the fact that most of the Lords are male are probably due to the fact that men fight wars.. Tolkien wasn't big on female warriors.. Not even Lúthien was a warrior-warrior type of girl..
The interesting question might be rather how the Elven royalties were established in the first place.. I don't suppose it was like some were born kings and other just common elves. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: October 9th, 2011, 10:06 am 
Hobbit
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I've always considered Eowyn to be one of Tolkien's most "real" characters, but her pairing with Faramir has always gotten on my nerves as well. It doesn't help that I really don't care for Faramir myself. :-D Also, I consider the vagueness of his descriptions to be s major flaw as well. He spends paragraphs describing the landscape or the atmosphere of a particular area, but a lot of the main characters or their immediate surroundings go without so much as a few adjectives!

As to the Silmarillion, I usually leave problems like the unending reign of the Elves slide because poor Tolkien died before he could smooth those flaws out! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: November 26th, 2011, 6:49 pm 
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I wish he had named Arwen and Aragorn's daughters. And told us exactly how many they had. Thus sayeth the avid family-tree-drawer. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 18th, 2013, 3:31 pm 
Ringwraith
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Quote:

3) L.A.C.E. At first I found it interesting, then realised just about everything in it is contradicted by What Elves Actually Did. Example: LACE says elves don't lust. So I suppose we should just ignore ignore Eol forcing Aredhel, Maeglin's creepy Idril stalking and Celegorm's Luthien grabbing. Whoops. Also Elves are supposed to love only once in their lives choosing their partner very young, with Finwe as the sole exception...and then there's Finduilas randomly falling out of love with Gwindor and for Tùrin. They're not supposed to be able to be lied to by other Elves either: yet this too occurs in the stories!




I think in depth Elves were the ideal utopia with every thing in order but shadow an lies effect the Middle Earth and the whole world so itself can effect the pure nature. The other facts of lusts, sins or second love can be because they have took in human nature after darkness found the way to their souls.


Quote:

4) Bad writing. Don't kill me please. But seriously, there is a lot of that to be found in his work, at least to my taste. I like Tolkien because he created a world: I don't necessarily like how he tell every story of it. I mean how odd is it that I am able to dislike my favourite poem of his as a poem though I like the sentiment?


I love his way of writing. It is one of the thing that made me fall for his books.


Quote:
5) Sometimes Things Are Just Too Simple.
- Why do the peasants, but most importantly the nobles, accept Aragorn as thier ruler? Yes, it was due to him partly that they were able to survive, but anyone who knows anyone about how annoying humans are when it comes to politics and power knows it can't just be that easy. Yes, they had kings before. But that was a long, long time ago. They had for a long time had only a Steward, who probably ruled with the nobles. It was really quite a long standing system. Suddenly having a king again would probably not be great news for many people's positions, and humans have never been known to like giving up power. Also it would be like bringing a 16th century type govt back today. Hmm. Smells like trouble.


The world is pure, the feeling of having no king is so as being lost. In the story The ring was gone and it's a new era so why not to accept change?


Quote:
- Wait, why can Arwen even chose mortality? Elrond had already chosen, and it doesn't seem like any of Elros children was given the chance to chose immortality! Even ignoring that, wouldn't that mean that Arwen's children, too, had a choice? Now this surely complicates matters...


Arwen is an elf who chose the love of an immortal so her fate must be doom or a strange ending. It's like unrealistic nature of Elven life so she had to die. I am not saying she sinned but she mad a choice for a different life.


My other thoughts:
1. I never hated Tolkien but might hate some modernism authors and fan fictions writers who twist the facts.
2. I wish if he made Legolas find his human love or elf love.
3. I wish if he did the same for Gimli human or a lady dwarf ...

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 24th, 2013, 4:24 pm 
Istari
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Alatáriël Telemnar wrote:
Quote:

3) L.A.C.E. At first I found it interesting, then realised just about everything in it is contradicted by What Elves Actually Did. Example: LACE says elves don't lust. So I suppose we should just ignore ignore Eol forcing Aredhel, Maeglin's creepy Idril stalking and Celegorm's Luthien grabbing. Whoops. Also Elves are supposed to love only once in their lives choosing their partner very young, with Finwe as the sole exception...and then there's Finduilas randomly falling out of love with Gwindor and for Tùrin. They're not supposed to be able to be lied to by other Elves either: yet this too occurs in the stories!




I think in depth Elves were the ideal utopia with every thing in order but shadow an lies effect the Middle Earth and the whole world so itself can effect the pure nature. The other facts of lusts, sins or second love can be because they have took in human nature after darkness found the way to their souls.


Quote:

4) Bad writing. Don't kill me please. But seriously, there is a lot of that to be found in his work, at least to my taste. I like Tolkien because he created a world: I don't necessarily like how he tell every story of it. I mean how odd is it that I am able to dislike my favourite poem of his as a poem though I like the sentiment?


I love his way of writing. It is one of the thing that made me fall for his books.


Quote:
5) Sometimes Things Are Just Too Simple.
- Why do the peasants, but most importantly the nobles, accept Aragorn as thier ruler? Yes, it was due to him partly that they were able to survive, but anyone who knows anyone about how annoying humans are when it comes to politics and power knows it can't just be that easy. Yes, they had kings before. But that was a long, long time ago. They had for a long time had only a Steward, who probably ruled with the nobles. It was really quite a long standing system. Suddenly having a king again would probably not be great news for many people's positions, and humans have never been known to like giving up power. Also it would be like bringing a 16th century type govt back today. Hmm. Smells like trouble.


The world is pure, the feeling of having no king is so as being lost. In the story The ring was gone and it's a new era so why not to accept change?


Quote:
- Wait, why can Arwen even chose mortality? Elrond had already chosen, and it doesn't seem like any of Elros children was given the chance to chose immortality! Even ignoring that, wouldn't that mean that Arwen's children, too, had a choice? Now this surely complicates matters...


Arwen is an elf who chose the love of an immortal so her fate must be doom or a strange ending. It's like unrealistic nature of Elven life so she had to die. I am not saying she sinned but she mad a choice for a different life.


My other thoughts:
1. I never hated Tolkien but might hate some modernism authors and fan fictions writers who twist the facts.
2. I wish if he made Legolas find his human love or elf love.
3. I wish if he did the same for Gimli human or a lady dwarf ...

I agree with all this but I wish kili and fili didn't get killed :'-(

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 24th, 2013, 4:25 pm 
Istari
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Alatáriël Telemnar wrote:
Quote:

3) L.A.C.E. At first I found it interesting, then realised just about everything in it is contradicted by What Elves Actually Did. Example: LACE says elves don't lust. So I suppose we should just ignore ignore Eol forcing Aredhel, Maeglin's creepy Idril stalking and Celegorm's Luthien grabbing. Whoops. Also Elves are supposed to love only once in their lives choosing their partner very young, with Finwe as the sole exception...and then there's Finduilas randomly falling out of love with Gwindor and for Tùrin. They're not supposed to be able to be lied to by other Elves either: yet this too occurs in the stories!




I think in depth Elves were the ideal utopia with every thing in order but shadow an lies effect the Middle Earth and the whole world so itself can effect the pure nature. The other facts of lusts, sins or second love can be because they have took in human nature after darkness found the way to their souls.


Quote:

4) Bad writing. Don't kill me please. But seriously, there is a lot of that to be found in his work, at least to my taste. I like Tolkien because he created a world: I don't necessarily like how he tell every story of it. I mean how odd is it that I am able to dislike my favourite poem of his as a poem though I like the sentiment?


I love his way of writing. It is one of the thing that made me fall for his books.


Quote:
5) Sometimes Things Are Just Too Simple.
- Why do the peasants, but most importantly the nobles, accept Aragorn as thier ruler? Yes, it was due to him partly that they were able to survive, but anyone who knows anyone about how annoying humans are when it comes to politics and power knows it can't just be that easy. Yes, they had kings before. But that was a long, long time ago. They had for a long time had only a Steward, who probably ruled with the nobles. It was really quite a long standing system. Suddenly having a king again would probably not be great news for many people's positions, and humans have never been known to like giving up power. Also it would be like bringing a 16th century type govt back today. Hmm. Smells like trouble.


The world is pure, the feeling of having no king is so as being lost. In the story The ring was gone and it's a new era so why not to accept change?


Quote:
- Wait, why can Arwen even chose mortality? Elrond had already chosen, and it doesn't seem like any of Elros children was given the chance to chose immortality! Even ignoring that, wouldn't that mean that Arwen's children, too, had a choice? Now this surely complicates matters...


Arwen is an elf who chose the love of an immortal so her fate must be doom or a strange ending. It's like unrealistic nature of Elven life so she had to die. I am not saying she sinned but she mad a choice for a different life.


My other thoughts:
1. I never hated Tolkien but might hate some modernism authors and fan fictions writers who twist the facts.
2. I wish if he made Legolas find his human love or elf love.
3. I wish if he did the same for Gimli human or a lady dwarf ...

I agree with all this but I wish kili and fili didn't get killed :'-(

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 25th, 2013, 3:09 am 
Ringwraith
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legolin12 wrote:
I agree with all this but I wish kili and fili didn't get killed :'-(


I agree with you but it must be for a greater and higher from Tolkien's point of view :( . I would love ask him WHY?

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 25th, 2013, 12:31 pm 
Istari
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Me too, I'm going to look it up!

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 25th, 2013, 12:34 pm 
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legolin12 wrote:
Me too, I'm going to look it up!

If you do please share the answer with us :) .

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 25th, 2013, 12:40 pm 
Istari
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I will!!

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 25th, 2013, 1:03 pm 
Ringwraith
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Thanks so much :) .

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 Post subject: Re: Ten things you hate about Tolkien
PostPosted: March 25th, 2013, 6:51 pm 
Istari
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I will look it up tonight.

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