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 Post subject: Re: Other love relationships
PostPosted: December 15th, 2016, 11:41 pm 
Gondorian
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So the twelve volume series, is that something already out or something yet to be?


The twelve part History of Middle-Earth series (sometimes shortened to HoME) is already out Jax. The last volume, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, was published in 1996 I believe.

A notable chunk of it concerns the history of The Lord of the Rings. I haven't checked to see if I agree with everything from the following link, but Mellonath Daeron is usually reliable enough... here's a link to the contents of HoME, if interested.

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html

Earlier I brought up the Silmarillion because I feel like we got the presentations "switched" (generally speaking) compared with The Children of Hurin - meaning The Silmarilion of 1977 was a one volume constructed reader's version (as I call it), then later we got the more scholarly look at the unfinished sources used to construct it (and more, with HoME)... and with The Children of Hurin we got the one volume book second, that is, after a look at some of the unfinished and fragmented sources, in both UT and HoME.

For whatever that's worth anyway :-D


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 Post subject: Re: Other love relationships
PostPosted: December 17th, 2016, 7:24 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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That is so cool... I have heard of several of those books in the volume but never realized they were all in one volume and a couple I have never even heard of! Inhad nonidea there were that many middle earth books!

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 Post subject: Re: Other love relationships
PostPosted: December 18th, 2016, 11:28 am 
Gondorian
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To blather on :)

It appears that JRRT planned to have certain of the "Great Tales" written in longer forms, and these longer forms would either be in prose, verse, or both. After all, the Silmarillion was once characterized by Tolkien: "This is a history in brief drawn from many older tales; for all the matters that it contains were of old, and still are among the Eldar of the West, recounted more fully in other histories and songs."

And although this describes the Silmarillion of the mid to later 1930s [see The Lost Road] it still holds in general: Quenta Silmarillion was to be imagined as a relatively brief account. And in the later 1950s early 1960s Tolkien noted to himself (Christopher Tolkien's comments follow]: "The Three Great Tales must be Numenorean... Should not these be given as Appendices to the Silmarillion? "In the question with which this ends my father was presumably distinguishing between long and short forms of the tales."

These three tales are (generally speaking here):

Narn e-Dinuviel "Tale of the Nightingale" (Beren and Luthien). Tolkien worked on updated long versions in prose and poetry -- both unfinished however. For the verse versions, see The History of Middle-Earth volume III, The Lays of Beleriand. I expect some of this to be published in the new book on Beren and Luthien, and hopefully, the early abandoned long prose version mentioned in The Lost Road too, for example.

Narn e-mbar Hador containing Narn i-Chin Hurin "Tale of the Children of Hurin". For the verse versions see The History of Middle-Earth book III, the Lays of Beleriand.

Narn e-Dant Gondolin *Tale of the Fall of Gondolin. The long prose version of this appears in Unfinished Tales, unfortunately ending when Tuor sees the city after coming through the gates. Also see the late work Of Maeglin in The War of The Jewels, The History of Middle-Earth volume 11.

And Christopher Tolkien has earlier stated that, of these three, only The Children of Hurin was complete enough for him to try and piece together a constructed version, but again, Tolkien's grand plan appears to have included all three tales in long prose versions at least, in addition to the Quenta Silmarillion, and possible one or more of the three in a long poetic version as well!

The same tales, but told on different scales and in different forms. We know from the second edition of The Lord of The Rings [Note on the Shire Records] that Bilbo's translations from the Elvish constituted three volumes "almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days", so we arguably have plenty of room not only for: Ainulindale, Valaquenta, Quenta Silmarillion, Akallabeth, Of The Rings Of Power And The third Age [all appear in the 1977 constructed Silmarillion of course], but also for longer versions of certain tales, in prose or verse...

... and more!

Sadly, Tolkien did not have a Numenorean span of days!

Sorry to ramble off topic!


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 Post subject: Re: Other love relationships
PostPosted: December 18th, 2016, 12:34 pm 
Warden of the Knight
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Haha no worries Elthir! It's all very fascinating! I do wish we had a more concise and clear version on some of these. I heard the the Beren and Luthian book is going to have three long prose versions? Which is cool, but I'd like to see it standardized. I guess in history recounts from different recorders, however, there are always some differences.

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 Post subject: Re: Other love relationships
PostPosted: September 20th, 2017, 5:43 am 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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Caunion cyn Britannia wrote:
Besides the obvious ones like Aragorn and Arwen or Sam and Rosie or Faramir and Eowyn, does Tolkien mention other relationships? Like was there anyone that Boromir liked? I was just curious.


.... there was a serving maid at the White Tree Inn that was fond of him. ;)

Seriously, No mentions that I know. It almost seemed that Boromir had the inclination that led to the eventual demise of the line of Kings of Gondor, where they delighted in the skill of arms and tended to marry late, which led to a decrease in children born and lines ending due to the men getting killed before they settled down.

I think one of the saddest relationships mentioned was that of Denethor and Fundulias.

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 Post subject: Re: Other love relationships
PostPosted: September 20th, 2017, 3:44 pm 
Elf
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Hanasian wrote:
... I think one of the saddest relationships mentioned was that of Denethor and Fundulias.

Agreed, Hanasían. In a different sort of love, I find the relatively early daeth (for someone apparently quite pure-blooded of the Dúnedain, of Númenorean descent, at 100 years) of Aragorn II Estel's mother Gilrean. Vaguely reminds me of the death of Fëanor's mother Míriel, both having born exceptionally mighty sons.

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 Post subject: Re: Other love relationships
PostPosted: September 23rd, 2017, 7:39 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Gandolorin wrote:
Hanasian wrote:
... I think one of the saddest relationships mentioned was that of Denethor and Fundulias.

Agreed, Hanasían. In a different sort of love, I find the relatively early daeth (for someone apparently quite pure-blooded of the Dúnedain, of Númenorean descent, at 100 years) of Aragorn II Estel's mother Gilrean. Vaguely reminds me of the death of Fëanor's mother Míriel, both having born exceptionally mighty sons.


Interesting observation! The strong men, not necessarily of good character, bore their mother's strength that was drained from them.

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 Post subject: Re: Other love relationships
PostPosted: September 24th, 2017, 1:10 pm 
Elf
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Deumeawyn wrote:
Gandolorin wrote:
Hanasian wrote:
... I think one of the saddest relationships mentioned was that of Denethor and Fundulias.

Agreed, Hanasían. In a different sort of love, I find the relatively early daeth (for someone apparently quite pure-blooded of the Dúnedain, of Númenorean descent, at 100 years) of Aragorn II Estel's mother Gilrean. Vaguely reminds me of the death of Fëanor's mother Míriel, both having born exceptionally mighty sons.


Interesting observation! The strong men, not necessarily of good character, bore their mother's strength that was drained from them.

Yes and no. To use a scale plotting the modern term narcissism, to my mind Fëanor pretty much defines the maximum of that personality disorder – possibly the one which has its own specific term, megalomania. Now I don’t know what term professionals dealing with personality disorders have for the other extreme of the scale / spectrum. But the spectrum must have something to do with self-confidence, self-esteem. And with narcissism the concepts of overcompensation for insecurity does pop into my mind. But having zero self-esteem must be as bad (or even worse?) for the sufferer than loose-cannon narcissism – the latter being what third parties feel “not amused” about.

So I would certainly not place Aragorn II Estel at the other end of my hypothesized continuum. Probably the whole concept is oversimplified, not taking into account fear and aggression (one often leading to another, the old overcompensation bit). In mathematical terms, such a continuum is just an X axis. For a more complete picture, at least a Y, possibly a Z axis is also needed (I’m not going into the fourth dimension time in Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, Eru forbid!!!). But at least by the time of the War of The Ring, Strider ad reached a calm, non-aggressive (at least without need) self-confidence that Fëanor never even got close to.

And then there is the difference between Fëanor and Aragorn in that the former was a purebred elf, while Aragorn was, about 64 generations down from Elros, pretty much purebred human. As JRRT described it, in my fuzzy memory, pregnancy really did sap some of the native strength of Elven women (so Fëanor’s wife Nerdanel becoming estranged from him may also have something to do with the drain on her native strength that her six pregnancies – Amrod and Amras were twins – caused). Very much more so because Fëanor was her husband, who had already greedily (not necessarily knowingly, but JRRT was utterly silent on the topic of Elven embryology, so who knows) drained his mother Míriel of her will to live. Closest in progeny were Finarfin, Fëanor’s half-Vanyarin half-brother and the former’s royal Telerin wife Eärwen with five children, including Fëanor’s only competitor for the title of greatest Elf of all times (with the almost invisible High-King of all Elves Ingwë of the Vanyar hovering inconclusively in the background) Galadriel. By the end of the Third Age, Galadriel towered far above the narcissistic monster Fëanor.

While Aragorn’s mother Gilraen shared Fëanor’s mother Míriel’s weariness of life, for Gilraen, while 100 was an early non-violent death for her kind, the weariness probably came from seeing things get worse and worse over the decades, despite her mother Ivorwen’s foresight that Gilraen should marry Arathorn II while she was at an unusually early age for marriage as something very necessary for the future of the Dúnedain. This was in a sense confirmed when her father-in-law Arador was slain one year after her marriage an also one year before the birth of her son Aragorn II (2931 TA), making her husband Arathorn II chieftain unexpectedly soon, and then by Arathorn’s own premature death in 2933 when Aragorn was 2 years old. In modern terms a narrow window of opportunity.

In 3018, when the decisive events leading to the destruction of the One Ring started, Gilraen – having died at 100 in TA 3007 - would “only” have been 111 (as old as Bilbo at the long-expected party!) and should have had some decades left to see her son rule the reunited kingdom. But then until Gollum (accidentally?) tripped and fell into the lava of Orodruin, things had continuously gotten worse, with short upward blips for Sauron’s foes like the defeat of the evil forces at Helm’s Deep (and Isangard) and the Pelennor Fields. Except for Aragorn, Gandalf the White and Sam Gamgee, probably no enemies of Sauron really kept focused on the necessary thing to do despite all odds.

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