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Debate
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5651		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Witch_King_of_Angmar [ January 28th, 2006, 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Debate
I myself never get to bust out all that LotR knowledge I've gained(stares at history of middle earth collection gathering dust) and I would like to debate with people over at least one of the following things

Was Ungoliant really that strong?

The Most Probable Origin for the Orcs(Morgoth's ring simply speculates about this)

The Relative Power of Gandalf the White in correlation with other maia or entities such as the Witch-King

that all I can think of at the moment, and I would love to see others opinions of these things :bye2:
Author:  Sage-Child [ January 30th, 2006, 9:52 am ]
Post subject: 
I'd love to...it might be a bit short...here goes:

Ungoliant might not have been strong(depending on your definition of the word) but she was able to confound the Valar with her webs of darkness

I think mutilated elves would be the most likely origin of orcs...as Melkor disguised himself as Orome and captured elves soon after they awoke. Trolls are a bit tougher...

Let's see...maybe I should lay some groundwork to get perspective. Only at night were the Nine almost as powerful as Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was mortal, unlike Gandalf the White. If Gandalf the Grey was more powerful than the Nine, even at night, how much more powerful would Gandalf the White be? The same question can be asked when you consider how evenly matched Gandalf the Grey and the balrog were. Not much, but it's a start :)
Author:  Witch_King_of_Angmar [ January 30th, 2006, 7:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
on the first topic, I have to say, I had doubts about her "strength" when the balrogs stopped her, and melkor(their master) couldn't do anything

trolls may be ents in their origin, or maybe there was a race of trolls already that was corrupted

and on gandalf, when he was gandalf the white he had simply partially revealed his power, and that balrog may not have been anywhere near on the scale to Gothmog.
Who maybe would have been to defeat Gandalf the White
Author:  Sage-Child [ January 31st, 2006, 9:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Hmm...well, she was obviously pretty powerful after eating the gems...I guess now the question is why Melkor was too weak to resist her attack himself :P

I agree, trolls are rather like ents, in a way...

Quite right. We don't know how Gothmog and the other balrog compare, so we can't be sure that Gandalf the White could defeat him.
Author:  Witch_King_of_Angmar [ January 31st, 2006, 7:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
so he only topic with which we could really speculate is melkor, I believe he himself had been slowly dispersing his power while in Valinor to control the Earths matter, hence becoming progressively weaker
Author:  Gir [ February 1st, 2006, 11:43 am ]
Post subject: 
i agree with Witch_King_of_Angmar on that
Author:  Witch_King_of_Angmar [ February 1st, 2006, 7:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
your post was unnecessary :rolleyes:
Author:  Witch_King_of_Angmar [ February 1st, 2006, 9:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
as was that one
Author:  Elu Thingol [ February 3rd, 2006, 12:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Krentere wrote:
so


So you're unneededly spamming a good topic.

As for the Orcs originating from either Men or Elves, I already posted a quite long essay on that some time ago. Allow me to find it..

http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtop ... c&start=96

Orcs are most likely Men.
Author:  Cuilwen [ February 3rd, 2006, 1:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
I dare to disagree with you on that Elu, but that's just my opinion. I still haven't read everything you posted there, so I guess you win. :p

I hope I'm not spamming... :hide:
Author:  Larael [ February 3rd, 2006, 7:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
^^I gotta disagree with you on that too Elu. I thought it was plainly stated in the books that the Orcs did originate from the Elves.

Okay, I don't think "originate" would be the right word for it, but the Elves were tortured till they became like Orcs.
Author:  Witch_King_of_Angmar [ February 3rd, 2006, 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes, but Elu's essay does not have a decisive result, and simply gives the most probable origins. I myself have read Morgoths Ring, and will refrain from touching the elf=orc subject again. Can everyone please give their opinion on the weakness of Melkor compared to Ungoliant
Author:  Thrandrog [ February 5th, 2006, 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, I believe that Ungoliant was a Maia. Morgoth (Melkor) was a Vala. Two TOTALLY different beings. I also believe that Maia's cannot kill one another. As for their weaknesses, I truly don't know. I don't think they have any... or... for the moment. Also, Ungoliant also destroyed the two trees of Valinor (or something) Telperion and Laurelin.
Author:  Witch_King_of_Angmar [ February 5th, 2006, 7:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Melkor could've himself, if you read Morgoths Ring, before he dessiminated his power into the matter of Arda he could defeat all the Valar alone
Author:  Ziltoid [ February 6th, 2006, 9:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thrandrog wrote:
I also believe that Maia's cannot kill one another.


Gandalf killed the Balrog in Moria...
Author:  Ziltoid [ February 6th, 2006, 9:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thrandrog wrote:
I also believe that Maia's cannot kill one another.


Gandalf killed the Balrog...

And the plural form of Maia is Maiar, not "Maias" (or Maia's for that matter)
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