I think maybe it's about time we put up a philosophy thread... there's HEAPS behind LOTR so why not?

Well, here's a question: how do we really know that Sauron, Morgoth, the Witch-King, etc. were actually evil? Remember, LOTR is written in the human perspective and what we percieve as good and evil. Maybe Sauron and Morgoth had more of a purpose than to gain power. What do you guys think?

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Really good question.
Sauron, the Witch King and all the others are simply drawn to the power of the ring. The ring is what makes them greedy, dangerous and in our eyes evil but it's nothing they can control. Just like Boromir couldn't control his attraction to the ring, we all know what he could have become had he not died there in the woods of Amon Hen.

So as a conclusion the ring is the true evil in this story as it corrupts, destroys and ruins even the most kindred of spirits, it only personify itself through the creatures of Middle-Earth as they fall under the spell of the ring.

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from what I read in The Sillmarillion, Sauron and Morgoth were already evil before the One Ring was made..they were just evil from the start..what is evil to me? to want power no matter the cost, they wanted to take control over everything, destroying everything, and living in the darkness, they dont care that everything around them looks destroyed, they like it that way..that's evil to me
Sauron was the one that made the Ring, to be able to have more control over the Lands of Middle Earth, the Ring IS evil cuz the person that made it is evil as well..the other ppl that wanted it or had it like Gollum couldnt help to be bad cuz the ring poisoned their mind..in the case of men is worse cuz, in the words of galadriel in the movie, the hearts of men are easily corrupted, they have no will to fight evil, cuz they're weak, and desire power, so if someone offers them the weapon to gain power, they'd take it in a second..if men take the ring, they'll go to the dark side (not going all Star Wars, lol)..is like a drug..si not you the one that does weird stuff when on dope..si the drug that plays with your mind

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Morgoth and Sauron were evil way before the ring was made. There's no question in my mind about this one. New topic please

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ok then

all i was trying to get at was that maybe there was a different viewpoint other than Tolkien's on the concept of good and evil. Of course Sauron and Morgoth were evil! But only what if... sorry i love asking questions

New question: the existence of Midlle-earth. Where did Tolkien get this idea? Was there such a place? Where would it be within our earth? and other questions of the sort.

Feel free to ask your own philosophical questions as well

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The history Middle-earth and locations on Middle-Earth can be easily compared to locations and history of our World. Such as how easily corrupted people were to the ring can be similar to modern day happenings. The shape of Middle-earth was based on Europe I believe. In my opinion, Middle-Earth did excist in small parts of the world.... and it still excists in a modern-day form. Some of the cultures of Middle-Earth were based on cultures of history, such as the celts, angle-saxons, ect.


I'm done

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there's some documentary about that in the ROTK DVD (theatrical version), about from where Tolkien might have gotten the whole Epic stuff
besides..for me is pretty obvious some stuff..Tolkien lived in the middle of WW2 if I'm not mistaken, so he used that..the whole fighting against evil thing..and Rohan is most certainly taken from Viking cultures, the language is based on Anglo-saxon, Gondorian seems to be Greek or Roman based(just my oppinion in it, is based on the Citadel and armours, lol) and the Elven languages, at least Sindarin, well..I heard Enya, she's Gaelic and the dialect sounds a LOT like Sindarin
overall is based on celtic and anglo-saxon cultures and myths

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Ditto

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Moving this thread. Continue, though, it's a great topic *goes off to think and look into H.O.M.E.*

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I know a few tid-bits about rumors of Middle-earth once existing:

In the back of an LOTR magazine they had some random facts and one of them was that it may have existed 7,000 years ago.

Also, I think the shape of Middle-earth may be based on the shape of the world before the Tectonic Plates of the world shifted and formed the shapes of continents and islands that we know today.

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Well....the original question posted by Meltithennial still stands. Somehow we got off track...

The questions about good and evil is a very good one, and for philosophy students, one that they have probably encountered many times before.

Concepts of good and evil are deeply ingrained in the human pschye; and deciding upon what consistutes "good" or "evil" are closely tied to to social, cultural and religious factors and laws within a society, and sometimes, these factors are mirrored (by us) into "higher realms" outside of our human experience (e.g. Elves) to reinforce the validity of these laws and factors. For example, in Judeo-Christian interpretation, good and evil are defined both outside the realm of human-kind, as well as within human-kind: for example, the fall of the angels from the Creator preceded the fall of man from the Creator.

Tolkien, I believe, creates his Middle Earth based on this philosophical model as well: that good and evil can, and do, exist both within ourselves (humanity, hobbitya, etc) and outside of our experiences (Sauron).

The actual resolution between universal "good" or universal "evil" relies on a belief system that is seen to apply across various universes (sic) -- for Tolkien, this was his Catholic faith: goodness is defined by the uncoditional love of God, even for a fallen humanity; evil defined by the lack of presence of God. The validity of this model, of course, cannot be tested since it is based on some fairly large assumptions, and, ultimately, faith. We can only know the human perspective (and there are some very good rules about how to resolve "good" from "evil") and cannot claim any knowledge about the extra-human perspective.

Anyway, it is late. Please forgive me for my ramblings, but on the other hand, I hope this sparks some discussion!

Yes, I agree with everything that you said.

There really is no doubt in my mind that Morgoth and Sauron were pure evil. They were evil long before the Rings were forged, like you have all already said. But also I'm wondering about the orcs and other creatures made to serve them. The orcs were elves that were taken by Melkor and tortured and mutated until they became orcs, "in mockery of the eldest Childern of Iluvatar." So are they really, truly evil?? And as for, say, the Witch-king, I've always thought that it was sad what he and all of the other wraiths became. They used to be great kings of men, until Sauron tricked them. I guess in this case the power of the rings corrupted them, but then they can't really be completely evil, can they? There has to be some sort of good in them. Take Boromir- he fell under the power of the Ring, but he was not completely evil.

Sorry, now I'm rambling.

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^ exactly my point. what if there was a missing element in the stories, that mislead us into thinking that they were pure evil?

and rambling is good, Arwen its always fun to ramble!

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I'll jump in on the first question on good and evil.
I agree with you Meltithenniel on the perception that LotR is written from 'human perspective' (Tolkien was human and did write for human readers, lol), and that there must be some common sense ageement on the (universal) concept of good and evil. After all most mythologies around the world are based on the same understanding of at least two conflicting forces.

Was Melkor evil and were the Valar good per definition?
First of all Tolkien needed the conflict between good and evil.. without the recognizable conflict everything gets dull and unimportant. However, he deserves credit for not taking the easy way and simply state the fact that Melkor is evil and that's it. In the Silmarillion (Ainulindalë) all the Valar come into existance on equal terms and were given free will. I like to see Melkor as somewhat of a misunderstood kid with great ideas and visions that his conforming siblings failed to see. The disappointment drove him to turn away from the other Valar. In my opinion he was just different, the label of 'evil' is something we chose to put on him. Sure from our (human?) point of view he did evil things though, and I'm not defending Melkor beyond Ainulindalë, only pointing out that he had the same starting point as the others.

Also I don't think anyone sees themselves as 'evil' (and I'm not talking about stereotypes/archetypes on evil), it's all about different views. Like the terrorist vs. freedom fighter debate. No one claims to be a terrorist, they are just fighting for different causes and for the rights they believe in.
So to take the issue to an extreme, Melkor (Morgoth) wants to realize his vision of how the world should be... and the same with the so-called Free people of the West. They fight for a world of light, but honestly being an orc with pale sensitive skin that wouldn't be his idea of freedom...
Alright I'm rambling... I don't want to go anywhere near the creation of orcs or whether their slay-eat-burn nature can even be justified. My final point I'm desperately trying to reach is that what rocks you boat might not work for me because we have a different starting point or different understanding of the ideal world.

Well... pretty far-fetched I know... especially the last part but as niggle said, keep the discussion going!

(Ohh... I didn't touch on the Ring and how it corrupts people... well... will try to get to it, if there will be a 'next time'!)

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This is a really interesting topic. I have plenty of answers for your questions, however I'm really in a random mood right now, not a philisophical one. Later

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Yes, I agree with many of your points Ea. What if Melkor just had different causes that he wanted to fight for, different from that of the Valar or the Eldar, etc?? What if that was his original reason for going "bad", but then after that he turned bitter against the Valar and Eldar and that is why he fought against them until his downfall?? Like you said, kind of crazy, but all the same...

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