Ok,

Mephiston here after a significant break from being online, and I apologise if anyones missed me (lols, that one still cracks me up )

Now, to the matter Im curious about.

I was thinking about the fate of the various races that Illuvatar put in Ea, after reading that particular section of the Silmarillion. It is the fate of the Elves to live on unless slain of they die some other way, and then to eventually be reborn; the fate of men to live only a short time and from then nothing is known, save they will have a part in th esecond music; of the dwarves it is their part to help Aule remake the world after the last great battles are fought.
Then I considered Orcs. For unless Im mistaken, the first orcs were created by Morgoth torturing some of the Eldar; and twisting them to his purpose (and if Im incorrect, correct me). Therefore it stands to a certain amount of reason that they have a soul, a fea so to speak, of some kind, and therefore have a fate in the great scheme of things. Yet the first orcs made must have died by the third age, due to battle (the war of wrath must have killed this first generation), so how do later orcs display sentience? The fact they have self awareness, in that they can do things without their creator specifically using mental power or command to have them do something also implies they have a soul of sorts (example being of Aule and the creation of the dwarves).

I know what I mean, but, whether or not anyone else has understand my babling remains to be seen.
I look forward to your opinions

Mephiston

I'm not sure what your question is exactly, but the issue is very interesting.
Yes, I too believe the orcs have 'souls' just like any other of Ilúvatar's creatures, because orcs were made of the elves into a race of their own. The way I understand your wondering is what becomes of orcs after they die, and whether they have a purpose to fulfil. Actually, I think this is very closely related to the theology/mythology of Arda of which there are so many black wholes, so like so much in Tolkien's world it's partly left to our imagination and personal beliefs.

I don't think orcs share the fate of the elves since they have changed too much away from the elves due to Morgoth's evil to them and the the long time. I think we've discussed orcs in some other threads earlier... my opinion is that orcs no longer have the same almost eternal lifespan as the pure-blooded elves because orcs are no longer elves. That certain grace left them when Morgoth turned them into twisted creatures. But I don't have an idea to where they go when they're slain.

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Im with you I think with this; Im intrigued as to what would be considered "canonical", if such terms can be truly used in this day and age where thought is a swift as light. I mean, it would take several lifetimes to adequately flesh out and answer every question in the Books; and if Tolkien had done it, well, I can see there may have not been the detail on the main storyline otherwise Personally, Im comfortable filling in the blanks in this section of Arda's mythos, as I assume most others will.



I think that one of the key sections is during the Music of the Ainur, after the third theme, Eru pronounces that no theme can exist that does not have its source in him, and that all things ultimately redound to the glory and betterment of his work/design.

Ultimately, I dunno Im just after what others think. I know what Id probably say; that since they do not exist by Erus leave (while the Dwarves do) they have no place really in his design. Yet evil men and elves such as Maeglin and Eol still have a place in the designs; which seems unfair to me.

But thats just me

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "

It's a thought, but I like to think when the Elves were taken and tortured and twisted that their souls left their bodies to the halls of mandos leaving just hate and malice along with their twisted and deformed bodies. I think ultimately Melkor doesn't have power over souls only the minds and to a lesser extent the physical realm. So although he may be able to taint their mind and bodies their souls are still immortal and are the souls of elves.

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'Come bite the apple and I'll crawl around your heart'