But it is said explicitly that Amroth was the son of Amdir...
'Amroth was king of Lorien, after his father Amdir was slain in the battle of Dagorlad...' JRRT, Amroth And Nimrodel, 1969 or later
And we know that Amdir is not Celeborn
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| Confusion over Amroth... http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8056 |
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| Author: | Luiniel [ May 7th, 2006, 6:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confusion over Amroth... |
I recently began reading The Unfinished Tales and came across a passage that mentioned Galadriel and Celeborn having a son called Amroth. "During their sojourn near Nenuial was born, at some time between the years 350 and 400, their son Amroth. (The time and place of Celebrian's birth, whether here or later in Eregion, or even later in Lorien is not made definate.)" I thought they only had Celebrian, so now I'm a bit confused. Does anyone have any explanation for this? Was it just an idea that Tolkien toyed with later on after he'd already published lotr? |
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| Author: | Chaleins of Norbury [ May 9th, 2006, 10:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confusion over Amroth... |
Luiniel wrote: I recently began reading The Unfinished Tales and came across a passage that mentioned Galadriel and Celeborn having a son called Amroth.
"During their sojourn near Nenuial was born, at some time between the years 350 and 400, their son Amroth. (The time and place of Celebrian's birth, whether here or later in Eregion, or even later in Lorien is not made definate.)" I thought they only had Celebrian, so now I'm a bit confused. Does anyone have any explanation for this? Was it just an idea that Tolkien toyed with later on after he'd already published lotr? It's not known for certain if this was a discarded concept, so you are not confused, it's one interpretation. According to his son, Christopher Tolkien, this was a concept only that came after the Lord of the Rings was published and discarded, and he became just plain old Amroth, the King of the elves in Lorien, with a different father. This is more widely accepted because it's part of the story and time line into which the three books fit. |
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| Author: | Lady Erana [ May 26th, 2006, 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Maybe this site will help you... http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rwf.downing/samroth.htm |
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| Author: | Fíriel_18190 [ May 28th, 2006, 4:29 am ] |
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thanks for that link Éowyn. I was also quite confused by this. |
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| Author: | Ivreniel [ May 28th, 2006, 11:40 pm ] |
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Yes, it can be confusing! I remember when I first read it. I wasn't just confused, I was excited. A son? Amroth? And was he related to the Amroth of Legolas' song? You know, "Amroth beheld the fading shore now low beyond the swell and cursed the ship that bore him far from Nimrodel. From helm to sea they saw him leap as arrow from the string and dive into the water deep." I love the idea that they did have a son, that he did make it and his blood and hers flowed into the lines of Gondor, esp that of Imrahil (and thus Faramir and Boromir, who are his nephews!). |
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| Author: | Elthir [ November 3rd, 2011, 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confusion over Amroth... |
Chaleins of Norbury wrote: It's not known for certain if this was a discarded concept, so you are not confused, it's one interpretation. Hmm, but Christopher Tolkien seems pretty sure this was discarded -- and I would agree, given the scenario here: 'I have said earlier (p. 245) that if Amroth were indeed thought of as the son of Galadriel and Celeborn when The Lord of he Rings was written, so important a connection could hardly have escaped mention. But whether he was or not, this view of his parentage was later rejected. I give next a short tale (dating from 1969 or later) entitled 'Part of the Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel recounted in brief.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The History of Galadriel And Celeborn As it's a later text (and quite late actually), I think this is why it's accepted that Amroth is not Galadriel and Celeborn's son. |
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| Author: | Felarof [ August 20th, 2012, 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confusion over Amroth... |
Later in Unfinished Tales, it says that Amroth being the son of Galadriel was just an idea. It's not really said whether he is or not. |
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| Author: | Elthir [ August 21st, 2012, 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confusion over Amroth... |
But it is said explicitly that Amroth was the son of Amdir... 'Amroth was king of Lorien, after his father Amdir was slain in the battle of Dagorlad...' JRRT, Amroth And Nimrodel, 1969 or later And we know that Amdir is not Celeborn
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| Author: | Felarof [ August 21st, 2012, 4:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confusion over Amroth... |
Thanks for the correction, Elthir. Now I remember that. 
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| Author: | Elthir [ August 21st, 2012, 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confusion over Amroth... |
Well, in your defense, although that's a late text, it wasn't published by JRRT himself. He did publish Treebeard's greeting to Celeborn and Galadriel in any case... A vanimar, vanimálion nostari 'O beautiful ones, parents of beautiful children' ... and some focus on the English translation 'children' here. There is also the matter of the meaning of the plural marker -li in Quenya as well, which some think means 'some' or 'many'. I think this is more of a general greeting or saying, especially considering that the Ents could no longer have Entings at this time. In any case would anyone think Tolkien meant Amroth (even if he meant that Celebrian was not an only child in the first place), without the posthumously published text from Unfinished Tales... ... well the earlier text from Unfinished Tales I mean, not the one I just posted
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| Author: | Felarof [ August 22nd, 2012, 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confusion over Amroth... |
Wow. You obviously know your stuff, Elthir. |
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