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| Denethor's Hatred http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8838 |
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| Author: | Larael [ June 7th, 2006, 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Denethor's Hatred |
I've always wondered what prompted Denethor to hate Faramir so, besides the fact that he is the second son. Of course Boromir's death probably had something to do with it, but what if it was the Palantir also? What if Sauron or Saruman were showing Denethor things about Faramir that put him in a bad light and weren't true. It could be possible... What do you think? |
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| Author: | Galadhrim_arrow [ June 7th, 2006, 5:34 pm ] |
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Well, its like Faramir said "They were so much alike, he and my father," and I read somewhere that Faramir was more like his mother and since the passing of her Faramir reminds Denethor of her. PLus parents tend to like the more accomplished children. I speak from experience. |
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| Author: | Meldawen [ June 7th, 2006, 6:27 pm ] |
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Yeah, Denethor was reminded of his wife (Finduilas? Or was that the wife of another steward? I think it was Finduilas) in Faramir and I think he started to go a little insane after she died, which could partly explain his rampant dislike for Faramir and his rampant favoritism of Boromir. |
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| Author: | Larael [ June 7th, 2006, 10:52 pm ] |
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That makes complete sense, and I think I overlooked that part of the story. I knew that Denethor's wife had died, but I had no idea that could be connected with his dislike of Faramir. |
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| Author: | Fíriel_18190 [ June 8th, 2006, 7:38 am ] |
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That's what I also think. I think Faramir was too different from Denethor himself and very much like Finduilas, so Denethor liked the one better, who was more like himself. |
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| Author: | Eä [ June 9th, 2006, 5:16 am ] |
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Thank you for opening this topic Larael. I've been wondering this about Faramir too. Now what you all say about Denethor and Finduilas makes me want to know more about her. Who was she, why did she pass away so early and could it really be that Faramir resembles her so much? I think the answer to these questions would help me to understand more of Denethor and Faramir (which is the main topic of this thread). |
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| Author: | Meldawen [ June 9th, 2006, 10:17 am ] |
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We don't know a whole lot about Funduilas. She was a Dunadan of Gondor and the daughter of Adrahil of Dol Amroth (who was also likely the father or grandfather of Imrahil). It says here..."A beautiful and gentle woman, Finduilas after her marriage missed the sea and the freedom of the south and dreaded the Shadow of Mordor." It looks like she died when Faramir was probably five and Boromir was ten. That's so sad... |
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| Author: | Fíriel_18190 [ June 9th, 2006, 2:41 pm ] |
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*agrees with Ea* I think it would be very interesting to get more information about Finduilas. I think it would be very useful to understand Denethor better. |
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| Author: | Larael [ June 10th, 2006, 7:04 pm ] |
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According to Wikipedia Finduilas disliked living so near Mordor, and this weakened her. She became even more weakened after the birth of Faramir, and ended up dying not much later. So, I think we can conclude that Finduilas was a very frail person both in body and mind. She definitely didn't like the thought of Mordor being so close. Anyway, sorry I'm being so off topic... back on topic now. 
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| Author: | Fíriel_18190 [ June 11th, 2006, 4:33 am ] |
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^ thanks for the information Larael, very useful If Finduilas weakened even more after the birth of Faramir then maybe this could also be a reason why Denethor hated Faramir I think..
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| Author: | Lady Erana [ June 11th, 2006, 4:57 am ] |
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Yes, somewhere I read that Finduilas died shortly after Faramir's birth, and I have always thought that Denethor hated him because he blaims him for "killing" Finduilas. |
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| Author: | Fíriel_18190 [ June 11th, 2006, 5:03 am ] |
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^ *agrees* that's what I wanted to say.. of course it's a bit weird to blame your own son for the death of your wive, but I can imagine that Denethor did it.. |
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| Author: | Lady Erana [ June 11th, 2006, 6:43 am ] |
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Poor Faramir! He always tried to make his father happy, but Denethor never even gave him a chance! I don't understand how a father can be so... rude to his son! How could he become so cold? |
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| Author: | Eä [ June 11th, 2006, 11:30 am ] |
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Thank you all for the info on Finduilas. Well, Eowyn, why Denethor could hate his own son is a very psychological question with so many different aspects playing a possible role. Being a ruler of a country is a heavy responsability and a very lonely position. After the passing of Finduilas Denethor was left alone also with the responsability of raising their two sons. As a ruler he might feel he had very limited room to show emotions and weakness like mourning over his wife first of all because he needed to stand up as a great leader ready to face the challenge from Mordor, and second because he had to put aside his own feelings to act for the good of the country. Also there are the kind of people who oppress their grief and bury themselves in work... This all becomes so hypothetical but these are some of the psycological mechanisms that could have influenced Denethor. Although he might love his sons equally, for him it came more natural to favour Boromir who seemed to be so much like himself, and to blame Faramir, his weaker little brother, especially if he was painfully reminded of Finduilas every time he saw him. And if Denethor's ideal of a "real" man and leader is the warrior, Faramir will obviously not win his fathers recognition by reading lore and poetry. This was long and not supported by any quotes or passages in the books, however, these are some of the thoughts that come to my mind on this topic. |
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| Author: | Fíriel_18190 [ June 11th, 2006, 2:34 pm ] |
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whoa that's very good. You explained it brilliantly. I can only agree with ya.. |
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| Author: | Sinbearer [ July 22nd, 2006, 6:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | "Responsible" |
Hmmmmmm....you guys bring up some thought provoking questions as usual. Tolkien certainly created a wonderful and capable character in Faramir. I think there is much to be said about him although I haven't studied him a lot. I have seen it so often in literature where the father hates a child whose mother dies in childbirth and he sees as being "responsible" for his wife's death. (A Christmas Carol to cite one famous example) So it wouldn't be too hard for me to accept that the weaking and subsequent death of his wife after Faramir's birth could have been part of the reason Denethor treated him with such rejection. |
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