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The Glorfindel in the Sil and the Glorfindel in FotR are...
The same person 57%  57%  [ 17 ]
Two different people 37%  37%  [ 11 ]
Why does this matter? 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 30
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PostPosted: June 29th, 2005, 7:06 pm 
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I know! :'(

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PostPosted: June 29th, 2005, 8:29 pm 
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Well, I know for sure Glorfindel was said to be the only Elf to return to Middle-earth from the Halls of Mandos, so why wouldn't he be the same person? Why would even the Nazgûl fear him, who had slayn a Balrog?

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Last edited by Elu Thingol on June 29th, 2005, 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: June 29th, 2005, 8:44 pm 
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oooooooooo good point Elu! I didn't remember that so maybe it is the same person. But in some other cases i.e. Denethor it is probably two different people. :-D Sorry Elu I didn't think of that, thanks for reminding me.... :blush:


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PostPosted: June 29th, 2005, 9:02 pm 
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You're welcome, I hope to convince more people with this statement.

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PostPosted: July 3rd, 2005, 2:04 am 
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Elu Thingol wrote:
Why is there even a poll about this? Everyone knows they are the same person, right?


Well, my apologies if we aren't as all-knowing as you :P Lots of people thought that they were different people so clearly there was a reason for a poll.

Lol, good plan feawen! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: More bouncing hobbits!

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PostPosted: July 12th, 2005, 4:53 am 
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i'm clueless about this Glorindel stuff but i found these "babies":
The Problem of the Two Glorfindels

With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person?

The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death.

These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.

Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

The question of Glorfindel's identity, then, brings us to a much wider, and highly relevant, question. Can we accept a writer's personal notes, whether written in preparation for a published work, or simply for personal satisfaction, as part of that writer's 'canon'?

The importance of this question is highlighted by the essay entitled The Problem of Ros in the same volume of The History of Middle-earth. This is an extensive disposition on the origins and meaning of the syllable ros in names such as Elros. The details need not concern us here: what is relevant is the fact that, after its composition, Tolkien noticed a detail in the published Lord of the Rings that essentially negated the discussion. He dismissed the body of The Problem of Ros with four words; 'most of this fails'.

But what if he had not noticed this inconvenient fact (that Cair Andros had already been interpreted, and disagreed with his conclusions)? What if he had noticed, but had failed to record the fact? Would The Problem of Ros now be considered part of the 'Tolkienian' canon in the way that many regard the notes on Glorfindel? Questions like this show that we cannot simply take such notes on immediate face value.

Despite this, the Glorfindel notes lead many to see his re-embodiment and return to Middle-earth as 'fact' (and not a few have e-mailed us to remind us of this!) The purpose of this rather lengthy aside, though, is to show that we cannot view these 'events' in such concrete terms. This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he did), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this.


NOTE:
The Noldor were normally dark-haired, but the golden hair of the Vanyar was introduced through Indis, a Vanyarin Elf-maiden; hence the descendants of her sons Fingolfin and Finarfin sometimes had golden hair, suggesting that Glorfindel may have come from this noble line.

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PostPosted: July 12th, 2005, 9:49 am 
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Quote:
he said that it was unlikely that two different people would be given such a distinct name


Actually, he did use Haldir twice.

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PostPosted: July 22nd, 2005, 5:39 pm 
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Elu Thingol wrote:
Well, I know for sure Glorfindel was said to be the only Elf to return to Middle-earth from the Halls of Mandos, so why wouldn't he be the same person? Why would even the Nazgûl fear him, who had slayn a Balrog?



Where exactly was it said that the Nazgul feared Glorfindel? Just for the record? I don't quite remember. :(

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PostPosted: July 26th, 2005, 8:10 pm 
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Hmmmmmm........I don't remember that either. :confused:


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PostPosted: August 8th, 2005, 12:03 pm 
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Quote:
Well, I know for sure Glorfindel was said to be the only Elf to return to Middle-earth from the Halls of Mandos, so why wouldn't he be the same person? Why would even the Nazgûl fear him, who had slayn a Balrog?
People get that confused because it is a possibility he returned at a different age. But elves do live long so it might be. There is no proof, well, that is published.

I'll simplyfy it-

The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel is the only last resource where everyone can answer that.
Tolkien said they were born at different times.
But the question still remains unanswered.

Earlier when people talked about Glorfindel they meant the one of the Chief of the Golden Flower. This one battled the balrog and was slain in the fall of Gondolin. He was reembodied by the Vala. He returned possibly in the mid-second age or sometime in the third. That's what confuses people sometimes.

Since the movie came out, there were some controversy over Arwen and Glorfindel. <<So this Glorfindel became very popular. He helped the hobbits escaped from the black riders.

I still think they are two different people. I would say it is still a question.

P.S. He did use Haldir twice, one from the third age and the other from the first age, but he said they weren't related. The Haldir from the first age was slain and only lived to about 36 years, but he was not an elf, but a man.

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PostPosted: June 18th, 2006, 7:41 pm 
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Bumping this thread from the last page since it seems interesting and we are reading FotR this month. :)

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PostPosted: June 19th, 2006, 10:21 am 
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I think they're two different people, but I'd like them to be one and the same person.. idk I like the idea of Glorfindel existing in the Sil and in LotR as well

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PostPosted: July 12th, 2006, 11:57 pm 
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I remember reading something by Christopher Tolkien somewhere that his father didn't realize he had used the name twice until the LotR books were finished. He also said that JRR began associating the two together, so that even if her wanted to change a name to make them two different elves, it wouldn't feel right.

Plus, there's the elven belief that elves "own" their name. There's a few exceptions (Curufin and Feanor for example. Also Legolas of gondolin and the fangirl's desire) but not enough for it to really seem like names were passed down.

Also, people have been stating names like Boromir and such. Note that those were passed down by the Edain only and not Edhil. Actually, elves (dead elves, but still elves) held the names of Finduilas and Ecthelion first. Finduilas was ... Orodreth's daughter, I think and Ecthelion of the Fountain, Lord of Gondolin.

But, those are just my observations and opinions.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2011, 9:21 am 
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I know I already revived another thread about Glorfindel, but this one brings up a few different points...

Arneth wrote:
I remember reading something by Christopher Tolkien somewhere that his father didn't realize he had used the name twice until the LotR books were finished.


I don't recall that; and I would say that Tolkien realized that he was using the name again, as even (at one point) while writing The Lord of the Rings he mused about Glorfindel telling of his ancestry in Gondolin (there's a note in the drafts concerning this). Christopher Tolkien published Tolkien's own late essays on Glorfindel in which JRRT himself notes that the appearance of the name Glorfindel in The Lord of the Rings was 'somewhat random', and that it escaped reconsideration before the book was published.

Yet somewhat random is not wholly random, and in any case we have Tolkien's own note to himself while writing The Lord of the Rings, as I say. Also, reconsideration means consider again -- even an older Tolkien probably couldn't say if he would have certainly altered the name years ago, had it not escaped before publication (incidentally this was quite a slow escape considering how long it took the book to complete). And we do know that Tolkien thought the form of the name was a bit problematic, as far as fitting into his later ideas about Sindarin (the name was originally invented as Gnomish), so that might have been part of the reconsideration here.

Quote:
He also said that JRR began associating the two together, so that even if her wanted to change a name to make them two different elves, it wouldn't feel right.


Christopher Tolkien noted that his father was free to change the name of Glorfindel of Gondolin, since it had not appeared in print, but that JRRT doesn't seem to have entertained this option. Certainly both late essays conclude that there was only one Glorfindel, and that Tolkien thought this decision improved the story, if that's what you mean.

Quote:
Plus, there's the elven belief that elves "own" their name. There's a few exceptions (Curufin and Feanor for example. Also Legolas of gondolin and the fangirl's desire) but not enough for it to really seem like names were passed down. Also, people have been stating names like Boromir and such. Note that those were passed down by the Edain only and not Edhil. Actually, elves (dead elves, but still elves) held the names of Finduilas and Ecthelion first. Finduilas was ... Orodreth's daughter, I think and Ecthelion of the Fountain, Lord of Gondolin.


I think this idea of Elves owning a name has been simplified by something noted about the Chosen-name specifically.

In Laws and Customs Among The Eldar (Morgoth's Ring) it is implied or suggested that the Chosen-name was a Noldorin custom -- Christopher Tolkien wondered if this idea was later abandoned, but although a later text on naming does not actually refer to the Chosen-name (as he points out), in my opinion it might not necessarily be rejected, given that this later text seems briefer and more general in any case. Anyway, Laws And Customs notes: 'The Chosen-names were regarded by the Noldor as part of their personal property, like (say) their rings, cups or knives, or other possessions which they could lend, or share with kindred and friends, but which could not be taken without leave.'

So if this idea was retained, in my opinion it concerns one type of name, not all types.

Another factor here might be a citation that I think was rejected: Christopher Tolkien provides a footnote that begins with a comment about 'magic' and taboo, which then relates: 'The Eldar did indeed believe in a special relation between a name of a person and his life and individuality; but this concened both first and second name (alone or together), which they might conceal from enemies.' This however was a footnote in version A that was not used in B, which is why I think it was arguably rejected -- especially since the footnote in B also begins with a statement concerning 'magic' and taboo, but omits the rest that I quoted here.

So the matter is a bit more complicated, externally and internally. I think a given Elf could have had the same name as another Elf, generally speaking. Some other details I think relate to the question of repetition of names among the Eldar...


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Argon -- name often given by Sindar and Noldor in memory of Aracano's valour (The Shibboleth of Feanor)

Celebrimbor, Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar -- said to be a frequent name among the Teleri (late writing, noted in Of Dwarves And Men, note 7).

Rumil -- there are seemingly two Rumils in The Lord of the Rings.

Gelmir -- there are seemingly two Gelmirs in Silmarillion writings.

Ambarussa (somewhat related here, though not exactly reflective of the point in general): Nerdanel gave her 6th and 7th child the same name: Ambarussa, though Feanor called one Ambarto desiring that they should be differently named (see Shibboleth of Feanor)

Galdor -- said to be a name of more simple form than the striking name Glorfindel, and thus might be repeated (Last Writings, author's note 1).


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 Post subject: Re: Glorfindel
PostPosted: August 22nd, 2012, 1:37 pm 
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The Sil says that the Glorfindel in there dies, so therefore they could not be the same person.

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 Post subject: Re: Glorfindel
PostPosted: August 22nd, 2012, 3:42 pm 
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But Felarof, Elves do not normally leave the Circles of the World when they die, but (in general) are restored to physical life.

The idea of Elven 'reincarnation' (although I've simplified it here) was part of the scenario when Tolkien was a young writer, and he never changed this. He changed how the Elves could be restored to physical life, but not that they could be, and were.

Death was not a problem here. However the ban on the Noldor was -- but Tolkien got around that, and had Glorfindel restored to his body (an exact if new version), and had him return to Middle-earth in the Second Age.


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