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| Silm/HoME Question http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9623 |
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| Author: | Arneth [ July 13th, 2006, 12:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Silm/HoME Question |
This is really bugging me. Which twin was it that was burned with the ships, Amrod or Amras?! If anyone could tell me that'd be munderful. |
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| Author: | Erethror [ July 15th, 2006, 12:58 am ] |
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Why...this just defies me!  I thought it was a simple matter of looking back in my memory banks, when that failed me I turned to the Silm., when that defied me I turned to the BolT. I tell you now I found nothing telling of either brothers fate other than they fell in battle while attacking the remnants of Gondolin and Doriath who held the Silmaril. However, I do lack any of the HoME books after the BolT 1&2, so perhaps in one of them the answer lay....
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| Author: | Arneth [ July 15th, 2006, 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Well, thanks for checking! I got some of the HoME books from the library, so maybe I'll be able to find it. Just one thing, though. Wasn't it Sirion and Doriath? |
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| Author: | Erethror [ July 18th, 2006, 10:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
No, no. The remnants of Gondolin and Doriath lived for a while at the mouths of the Sirion. After they were attacked there they re-settled on the Bay of Balar. |
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| Author: | Arneth [ July 19th, 2006, 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Oh. Point. I was saying, like, place names. |
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| Author: | Larael [ July 23rd, 2006, 7:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'm going to say that it was Amrod who burned with the ships, because according to my sources Amras was slain in the assault on the Mouths of Sirion. Hope I'm not giving false information here... |
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| Author: | Arneth [ July 24th, 2006, 12:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yup. I just double checked. It's Amrod! Thanks for the help! |
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| Author: | Elthir [ November 3rd, 2011, 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Silm/HoME Question |
Hmm, I think this answer might depend upon how one looks at the matter, because The Silmarillion is probably more well known as far as the names of these brothers -- and since it's noted in the published Silmarillion that Amras was the youngest son, in a sense one could say it was 'Amras' who was burned as Losgar, because (in the later version of the history) it was the youngest son who was burned. In other words, if more people think of Amras as the youngest son, which is arguably true given that the 1977 Silmarillion is arguably more widely known and read than The History of Middle-Earth series, then they might say Amras was burned when describing the later, revised history. But confusingly, the new story includes a new set of names too: there is no longer anyone named Amras in the new scenario, and both the 6th and 7th children are named (in Quenya) Ambarussa, which would become Amros in Sindarin (not Amras, as can be found on the interweb). But the story goes that Feanor did not like that both sons had the same name Ambarussa, and he called the 7th son Ambarto rather -- despite that Nerdanel had changed it to Umbarto. Anyway this son is slain in the burning, and Tolkien notes what he would have likely been called in Sindarin had he lived (and thus was not called, because he did not live), and that is -- Amrod. However, since he died he was referred to in Sindarin as Amarthan. Why? because it all depended upon what name was considered rightly given, combined with what name would have prevailed in Middle-earth: Feanor's Ambarto, or Nerdanel's Umbarto; and it was Nerdanel who proved ultimately correct, and Ambarto never got a chance to be rendered as Amrod in Middle-earth. And all the while Ambarussa remains a correct name too, in a sense and despite Feanor's objections, and this would have become Amros in Sindarin. So we end up with: 6th son: Q. Ambarussa S. Amros 7th son: Q. Ambarussa S. Amros -- Ambarussa changed to either Umbarto (S. Amarthan) or Ambarto (S. Amrod) -- and with his death Umbarto/Amarthan was considered rightly given, given its fated meaning. And we arguably should add Telufinwe here as well, as that meaning goes with the youngest son. So yes, it was Amrod, the youngest, who was burned at Losgar -- even though he was never called that (dying before he spoke Sindarin in any case), and there is no one named Amras -- but to Silmarillion readers the 7th and youngest son is named Amras! Delightfully confusing 
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