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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 12:10 pm 
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I agree.

It is very hard sometimes to interpret people's meanings on the net but sometimes it is ever so easy... if you are willing to look for it.

I've been a part of this merry-go-round for a very long time now, and whilst dreamingfifi has worked over our Elvish section, it has not been without conflict..... on her part especially. She has taken the opportunity to be rude, insulting to our community and also to Arweb whenever she can. She has claimed that her name will not go onto OUR old Elvish pages and that they are garbage.... they may well be garbage but they are AU's garbage. OUR garbage and quite frankly we like them.

If Ana is deemed to have been rude (and let's go right back to the beginning and see who had the sttitude first for a fair appraisal), then no one has been listening to what dreamingfifi has been saying or people have been pacifiying her because she is the one who knows what she has been doing. Let's put it this way, Ana has been far more patient and pleasant than I would have been had I trusted myself with replying as often has Ana has been.

As fas I am concerned, this should have been stopped ages ago. If enough people say "I want this kept" then the minority voice should have enough respect and humility to accept that as the ruling voice. Instead of complaining that the crusade for perfect Elvish is what this is all about.

It's not actually. It's about Arwen-Undomiel.com. What we'd like to see on AU and what visitors like to see.

I am so very, very done with this topic. As I know others are as well. I will continue to do my bit around AU, but I cannot in good conscience particpate in this conversation anymore. I am tired of it all, especially as I know what is truly behind all of this.

I know that you didn't mean to make it look like you were picking on Ana Ea, perhaps if you had quoted some of dreamingfifi's posts to balance out Ana's comments that would have been a better thing to do. It takes two to have a heated discussion, and more than one person can be seen as "patronizing".

I hope that someone else can carry on the discussion regarding the Elvish section, be it about our old pages or the reformation of the new. Because I think personally, it has been unfair that a very small minority have been a part of this most recent discussion.

Good luck to you all.

EDIT: As I finished posting this, I read your post Ea. Like I said, I know you had no intention of causing any upset. But I am not editing my post, as I feel I have to let people know how I feel. I don't ask that anyone respond to it, as I know you want this thread to carry on discussing things in a calm and appropriate manner. So I will just leave it here so people know why I won't be here anymore and maybe it will be food for thought for all.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 12:36 pm 
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I'm just going to ignore the conflict and keep working. If you have suggestions, let me hear them. I'm applying the ones offered already, and you should see them up in a few minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 1:13 pm 
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Dreamfifi, I think you should take note of the conflict as some comments are addressed to you.

I think I can say that the majority of the people would like to see the old lists back. So, as member of the AU revival team, it's your job to listen to what others want.

I'm not sure if the old lists are back up. If not, I'm asking you kindly to put the old lists back up, until everyone has agreed on new mutations.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 2:06 pm 
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I noticed. I know you pretty much all hate me for not worshipping the old website and being the dictator of the elvish section when you want a democracy.

Unfortunately, none of you are Tolkien language experts, so I need final authority on the Elvish. Which means that like it or not, my name is on the Elvish section. If I do a bad job on the translations, it reflects badly on me, not you.

I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm working really hard for you right now. I'm tired and don't have much tact in me right now. Forgive me if I end up sounding harsh.

Also, I've tried to include you guys in the making of the name lists, for the style and presentation. I've done almost everything that you've asked, and done the best I could to make it how you want it. That's pretty much as close to a democracy as we're going to get here. Maybe I should have just said, "tough luck" and ran away, but forgive me if I want to be helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 11:32 pm 
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I want to start out by saying that I do appreciate what you have done with the elvish section. I think it's great that we can have a fully updated elvish section. I also appreciate the hard work you have put in with the voice actors as well.

Since your intent was to have an updated section, I think it is safe to say you have achieved it. We will be placing the name lists back, as it is a very frequented section. If you would like to continue making a new, more accurate name list, you are more than welcome to. However, if you do so, you will need to contact a coder for putting it up on the site. You may PM one of us if you would like further explanation on that point.

AU is, above all things, a fansite. It's a place for fans to come together and enjoy. And in that, not everyone wants to learn IPA or discover all the nuances behind a word. Which is just fine. We're not in the business of regulating how fans can be fans. This is why we still feel strongly about keeping popular pages, even if they aren't as accurate as some may wish.

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Unfortunately, none of you are Tolkien language experts, so I need final authority on the Elvish. Which means that like it or not, my name is on the Elvish section. If I do a bad job on the translations, it reflects badly on me, not you.


This is something we had yet to get to. If you look at AU as a whole, credit is given on the "credits" page of the site. We can happily place disclaimers on the pages you want nothing to do with, stating that we know they are not linguistically correct, but there will need to be some shifting of how the credits are done. I can assure that everyone you have listed will receive their credit, it will just be done in keeping with the layout of the rest of the site. This is nothing about you, or the section, but merely to keep the site a cohesive whole.


I have sent out a few PM's regarding this whole thing over the course of the day, and if anyone wants to talk about it further please do so over PM.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 17th, 2012, 5:26 pm 
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I haven't read all of this thread so sorry if this has already been answered. I know the new name lists are still a work in progress but is there going to be a normal pronunciation guide for them as well that really confusing IPA stuff?

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 17th, 2012, 5:57 pm 
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At the moment, we're just working with IPA, but over time I'm sure we could try and get some pronunciation guides that are easier to understand. I read IPA fairly well now, so if I have the time I could probably work on that after Christmas.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 17th, 2012, 6:29 pm 
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That would be amazing if you could. :D

I know IPA is the most accurate because there's sounds in Elvish which aren't present in English and because of different accents etc but I really cannot understand IPA.
If I can get just a rough idea of how to say a translation of my name I will be happy. :D
Although saying that, the meaning of my name on that list is one I've never seen before. My name is Annabelle and the meaning of it is "grace and beauty" (the Anna part being the grace part and belle being beauty) but I've never seen lovable as a meaning for it before.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 26th, 2012, 8:51 pm 
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How is everyone's break going? Mine has been lovely so far. I've finished about 600 names in English, 1200 Elvish names.

According to the source I used, Annabel is a variation of Amabel (made to change by Anna) which means I had to choose a meaning. "Grace" in this case is referring to God's Grace, and the only way to translate that is "Eru-gift" or "Eru-sweetness" based on Tolkien's own translation of "grace". "Eru-gift/sweetness pretty" makes for a rather cumbersome name: Baineruant/Erulivain and Vanyeruanna/Vanyerulisse. So, I went with the translation of Amabel, which is much prettier and easier to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 27th, 2012, 7:02 am 
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Anameleth wrote:
At the moment, we're just working with IPA, but over time I'm sure we could try and get some pronunciation guides that are easier to understand. I read IPA fairly well now, so if I have the time I could probably work on that after Christmas.

I'm not sure you'll be able to get anything that's remotely accurate or not easily misunderstood, beyond IPA. I've tried... oh, how I've tried! But it always led to endless confusion, or basically making a new phonetic alphabet, so I just went with an already established phonetic alphabet instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 27th, 2012, 7:54 am 
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I'll do my best. It might not be as completely accurate as IPA, but it might be easier to understand, which I personally think is just as important.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 27th, 2012, 8:07 am 
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It would be great if you could work on that Ana! :)
Providing an easier pronunciation guide next to the IPA will make it accessible for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 27th, 2012, 3:59 pm 
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Once you make it, post how it works in detail here, so I can help.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 27th, 2012, 11:35 pm 
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Some basic spellchecking, and I'll send the page in.

I added an alphabet reference bar so people can click over to their name quickly.

816 English names translated!

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 9th, 2013, 7:58 pm 
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I realize that the "reforming of the elvish section" has been from the start my little OCD crusade. But, I think of it has benefits for both Arwen Undomiel and me. I don't have to worry about people getting horrible translations here, and Arwen Undomiel gets some cool content and recognition by a wider community.

I know you all love the old name sections, but let me try to show you what I see when I look at them, and hopefully I may persuade the majority, as you would prefer I do.

I shall be ignoring the pronunciation problems, because that would take far too much time and likely make me all upset again. This shall focus on the translations themselves.

S. for Sindarin; Q. for Quenya. Words without a notation are the same in both languages.

Quote:
Aafke
Health?
Hûredhiel
(Hoor-eh-thee-ell)

S. Vigor (missing vowel reduction) - S. sowing - daughter of

Quote:
Aaliyah
Ascender
Adlanniel
(Ahd-lahn-nee-ell)

S. slope - daughter of

Quote:
Abigail
God is joy
Erulassë
(Air-oo-lahs-say)

Eru - Q. leaf

Quote:
Ada
Happy
Alassëa (tr. Elv. "daddy")
(Ah-lahs-say-ah)

Q. Joyous

Quote:
Addison
Daughter of Adam
Adanessa
(Ah-dahn-ehs-sah)

S. daddy - Q. young

Quote:
Addylyn
Adorned cascade?
Vanlanthiriel (lit. "beautiful waterfall")
(Vahn-lahn-theer-ee-ell)

Q. goose (with Sindarin vowel reduction) - S. waterfall - daughter of

Quote:
Adele
Noble
Arwen
(Ahr-wehn)

S. Noble - S. maiden

Quote:
Adilya
Justice
Faelwen
(File-wehn)

S. just - S. maiden

Quote:
Aditi
Free
Mirima
(Meer-ee-mah)

Q. free (outdated... in LotR style Q. it means "very valuable")

Quote:
Adrienne
Rich
Alya
(Ahl-yah)

Q. rich

Quote:
Agatha
Good
Maerwen
(Mire-wehn)

S. good - S. maiden

Quote:
Aimee
Beloved friend
Mellimeldisiel
(Mehl-lee-mehl-dee-see-ell)

S. dear - random meaningless syllable - S. female friend - daughter of

Quote:
Alanah
Maiden
Vendethiel
(Vehn-deh-thee-ell)

Q. maiden - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of

Quote:
Alanna
Beautiful
Vanya
(Vahn-yah)

Q. beautiful

Quote:
Aleia
The ascent
Adlanna (lit. "the slope")
(Ahd-lahn-nah)

S. "it slopes"

Quote:
Alena
Light
Caladwen
(Kah-lahd-wehn)

S. light - S. maiden

Quote:
Alexandra
Defender of men
Beriadanwen
(Bear-ee-ah-dahn-wehn)

S. protecting - S. maker - S. maiden

Quote:
Ali
Sublime
Tauredhiel
(Towr-eh-thee-ell)

Q. forest - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of

Quote:
Alice
Truth
Thenidiel
(Thehn-id-ee-ell)

S. short/grey - S. tear - daughter of

Quote:
Alicia
Noble birth
Nostariel
(Nohs-tar-ee-ell)

S. family - S. noble - daughter of

Quote:
Allora
Divine counselor
Valainistima (lit. "divine learning")
(Vah-line-ihs-tee-mah)

Q. divine - Q. knowledgeable

Quote:
Alyssa
Rational
Sanya (lit. "normal")
(Sahn-yah)

Q. law-abiding

Quote:
Allegra
Joyful
Alassiel
(Ah-ahs-see-ell)

Q. joy - daughter of

Quote:
Amanda
Beloved
Melda
(Mehl-dah)

Q. beloved

Quote:
Amber
Precious jewel
Meldamiriel (lit. "Dear jewel")
(Mehl-dah-meer-ee-ell)

Q. dear - Q. jewel (with Sindarin vowel reduction applied) - daughter of

Quote:
Amelia
Admiring
Miluiel (lit. "friendly")
(Mill-oo-ee-ell)

S. lovely - daughter of/female

Quote:
Amycate
Pure-beloved
Manwameldiel
(Mahn-awh-mell-dee-ell)

Q. ready (out-dated term) - Q. dear - daughter of

Quote:
Analee
Grace
Eruanna or Erulissë
(Air-oo-ahn-nah; Air-oo-lee-say)

Eru - Q. gift or Eru - Q. sweetness

Quote:
Anastasia
Resurrection
Adonnenniel (lit. "rebirth")
(Ah-donn-enn-ee-ell)

S. re-begotten - extra letter added - daughter of

Quote:
Andrea
Courageous
Huoriel
(Hoo-ore-ee-ell)

Q. courage - daughter of

Quote:
Andreanne
Womanly
Dessuithiel
(Dehs-swee-thee-ell)

S. woman - S. like - random meaningless sound - daughter of

Quote:
Angela
Angelic
Valadhiel
(Vah-lahth-ee-ell)

Q. Vala - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of

Quote:
Angelina
Little angel
Aintithenniel
(Ine-tee-thehn-nee-ell)

Q. holy (missing the last letter) S. tiny - extra letter added - daughter of

Quote:
Anjali
Messenger
Mentathiel
(Mehn-tah-thee-ell)

Q. message - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of

Quote:
Ann
Gracious
Raina
(Rine-ah)

Q. gracious

Quote:
Anna
Grace
Eruanna or Erulissë (tr. Elv. "gift")
(Air-oo-ahn-nah; Air-oo-leese-say)

Eru - Q. gift or Eru - Q. sweetness

Quote:
Anneliese
Consecrated and gracious
Aistaraina (lit. "blessed and gracious")
(Eye-stah-rye-nah)

Q. holy - Q. gracious

Quote:
Annelot
Hidden-gracious
Haldaraina
(Hahl-dah-rye-nah)


Quote:
April
April
Gwirithiel
(Gweer-ith-ee-ell)

S. April (Gondorian calendar) - daughter of

Quote:
Arena
Holy one
Airedhiel
(Ire-ehth-ee-ell)

Q. holy - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of

This is all I have time for now (homework, yay), but can you see why I really don't like these names?

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 10th, 2013, 1:33 pm 
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I have to say I'm really not sure what you're trying to point out? But regardless, the point of keeping the old name lists was that we wanted to have name lists up at all times on the site. Personally it doesn't matter to me which list is there, as long as there is a usable one. I can take out the links to the old lists, and if there's an outcry, put them back.

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