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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 10th, 2013, 1:48 pm 
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*outcries*

At least leave them there until I've had some time to work on the more easily understandable pronunciation guides for the new list, so that people can have a list they understand available.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 10th, 2013, 3:07 pm 
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Sorry! I didn't realize you were working with them. They're back up now. (Though you can always just use the link arwen-undomiel.com/elvish/girlnames.html //boynames.html)

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 10th, 2013, 3:28 pm 
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Thanks :) I'm not working on those, it's the new ones I'll be looking at. But the last time the old ones were taken down, people asked where they'd gone, because they find them easier to understand than the new ones.

And actually I think that no matter if the new ones are made easier for "regular" (for lack of a better word) people to understand, there is no reason why the old ones can't stay up as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 10th, 2013, 6:10 pm 
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I've been thinking about the pronunciation guides, and I may have two other options for you.

One is IPA, but with fewer symbols, and slightly less accurate transcription.

I'd leave out palatalization of the /l/.
I'd use only 6 vowel symbols (instead of the 9 that I'm using now).
I'd change the vowel length marks into multiple vowels (making regular-length 1 vowel, medium-length 2 vowels, and long-vowels 3 vowels.)
For diphthongs I wouldn't use /j/ with, leaving it only for the consonant.

Example:
Quote:
I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chae a han noston ned 'wilith.

'The world is changed; I can feel it in the water, I can feel it in the earth, I can smell it in the air.'

/i ˈa.mar ˈprɛs.tar ˈaɛn/ /han ˈma.θon nɛ ˈxaɛ a han ˈnos.ton nɛd ˈwi.liθ/

Arwen: [Sindarin]

Frodo, im Arwen. Telin le thaed. Lasto beth nîn, tolo dan nan galad.

'Frodo, I am Arwen - I've come to help you. Hear my voice… Come back to the light.'

/ˈfro.do im ˈar.wɛn/ /ˈtɛ.lin lɛ ˈθaɛd/ /ˈlas.to ˈbɛθ ˈniiin/ /ˈto.lo dan naŋ ˈga.lad/


The other option I thought of is basically using Tolkien's transcription system, except with:
the syllables marked with periods
vowel length marked with multiple vowels
stressed syllables marked with CAPSLOCK
and velar nasals marked with <ñ/Ñ> (as Tolkien does in Quenya) [That's the NG in "sing" sound.)
X will be written as KS
QU will be written as KW
C will be written as K.

Example:
Quote:
I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chae a han noston ned 'wilith.

'The world is changed; I can feel it in the water, I can feel it in the earth, I can smell it in the air.'

/i A.mar PRES.tar AEN/ /han MA.thon ne CHAE a han NOS.ton ned WI.lith/

Arwen: [Sindarin]

Frodo, im Arwen. Telin le thaed. Lasto beth nîn, tolo dan nan galad.

'Frodo, I am Arwen - I've come to help you. Hear my voice… Come back to the light.'

/FRO.do im AR.wen/ /TE.lin le THAED/ /LAS.to BETH NIIIN/ /TO.lo dan nañ GA.lad/


Then a basic key on every page, so people can figure out what the unfamiliar symbols mean quick and easy.

How does that look?

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 10th, 2013, 6:29 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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Nurrantiel Mashiara wrote:
I have to say I'm really not sure what you're trying to point out?

I'm trying to point out that the old ones aren't useable. Some names are correct, but far too many have unintentionally hilarious/insulting/weird/wrong meanings in Elven languages. Grammatical mistakes are rampant, the languages used are mixed up and are never labeled. (if you are using the name for RP, then the language the name is in is important, as Sindar don't use Quenya names.) Also, many of them are really long and rambling, which I tried to avoid.

Anameleth wrote:
*outcries*

At least leave them there until I've had some time to work on the more easily understandable pronunciation guides for the new list, so that people can have a list they understand available.

If ease of understanding is the problem, let's focus on that. I'm tired of meeting people named "Daughter of goose waterfall".

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 16th, 2013, 5:25 am 
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Please, please, I'm begging here on my knees, don't delete the name lists!
I use them so much and they were the reason I joined AU!

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 16th, 2013, 11:35 am 
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Aha! A guinea pig! :teehee: Since you are a big fan of the name lists, can you take a look at the new one and see if it would work just as well for future reference? From what I gather, it should be just as helpful (esp once there's easier pronunciation guides) and it'd be nice to know if it can replace the other two.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 16th, 2013, 11:57 am 
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The original lists are easier to understand, easier to pronounce (seriously, that IPA stuff just makes me want to smash my laptop whenever I see it, it's so inaccessible), easier to navigate, and the meanings behind the names are the more usual ones rather than the strange ones in the new list.


I suppose the other reason I prefer the old name lists above the new ones is because I don't like being told that I can't do something. If I want to use the names from the old lists (and I've always been fully aware they're not accurate as I'm not an idiot and have read the info at the top of the page and I'm sure most people who use the list are capable of reading and have understood that too) then I will darn well will use them.

But there are people who use the name lists who don't care if they're accurate or not. And some of those people started questioning when they got taken down last time. It's obvious that those name lists aren't accurate (again, everybody who uses them are capable of reading and it states quite clearly that the names aren't accurate) but they do draw a lot of people to AU so they should stay up for that reason. Have the two lists up, the accurate ones for people who care about that, and then the others who just want to find pretty names for characters (and I'm not just talking about LotR RPing BTW). I don't see what the big deal is. Or even putting something like "These names are not accurate. For an accurate translation please see this list [link]" at the top of the page.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 16th, 2013, 12:41 pm 
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Okay, thanks for your input. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 18th, 2013, 8:23 pm 
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Hravan wrote:
Please, please, I'm begging here on my knees, don't delete the name lists!
I use them so much and they were the reason I joined AU!

Even if you're putting embarrassingly bad translations everywhere? to me it's like knowing Chinese characters and being able to tell that although tattoos that say: "馬鹿外人" look cool, but actually say "Stupid foreigner". But, the incompetence displayed in the old name lists is more like the tattoo guy telling you that he'll put "serenity" on your arm, but copying "roast chicken with bamboo shoots" from a Chinese menu instead. After all, who cares? You can't read it, and many American's can't read it. Let's just hope you don't ever go develop an interest in what your tattoo actually says, eh? Or that you never go somewhere that people who can actually read Chinese characters will see it.

Hravan wrote:
The original lists are easier to understand, easier to pronounce (seriously, that IPA stuff just makes me want to smash my laptop whenever I see it, it's so inaccessible),
Please, I'm begging you, let's work on a way to make this more accessible, instead of leaving the old material up! Also, since you don't understand the IPA, (and say this to dramatic effect) how can you tell whether or not the new lists have harder or easier to pronounce names in them?

From my point of view, they should be much easier. Most of the names are 1, 2 or 3 syllables long, and there are no 6 syllable names. There aren't random sounds that don't exist in Quenya smashed into Quenya names, and I very clearly marked which languages the names are in, so they names are much more consistent in their language-column.

Also, instead of just saying "I HATE IT" how about helping me come up with a more accessible system? This is something that I'm asking for your help on.

Quote:
easier to navigate
So how can we make the new material easier to navigate?
Quote:
and the meanings behind the names are the more usual ones rather than the strange ones in the new list.
LOL. That's just because I was more honest about what the Elvish versions of the names actually mean.

Quote:
I suppose the other reason I prefer the old name lists above the new ones is because I don't like being told that I can't do something.
So copy the old lists and save them on your computer, if they are so precious to you.

Quote:
If I want to use the names from the old lists (and I've always been fully aware they're not accurate as I'm not an idiot and have read the info at the top of the page and I'm sure most people who use the list are capable of reading and have understood that too) then I will darn well will use them.
I can't stop you. But, most people skip over the the block paragraph at the top and go straight to their names, and so have no idea how bad it is. You won't believe how many people I've had to explain to, "Go read the fine print! It basically says right there, 'these namelists are garbage, especially if you want truthful translations'." So many people I've found using the names from here had no idea that the words were haphazardly changed because the writer didn't think Elvish was Elvish enough.

Then the problem is compounded because they've been copied and pasted onto so many other websites, without the warning label, so even if people read warnings that come in block paragraphs, they still won't get the information.

Quote:
But there are people who use the name lists who don't care if they're accurate or not.
They do exist. You are a fine example of one. Many, however, would prefer good translations that actually mean something. I am an example of one such person.

Quote:
And some of those people started questioning when they got taken down last time.
So, put up a link that says, "the new and improved name lists are here!" with links. Problem solved.

Quote:
It's obvious that those name lists aren't accurate
If you have any background knowledge of Tolkien's languages, yes. Otherwise, it's pretty easy to sucker people into taking names that actually mean "daughter of a goose waterfall".

Quote:
(again, everybody who uses them are capable of reading and it states quite clearly that the names aren't accurate)
And again, most people don't read the warning labels.

Quote:
but they do draw a lot of people to AU so they should stay up for that reason.
How about something that draws a lot of people to A-U that isn't total crap?

Quote:
I don't see what the big deal is.
Obviously, you don't care about Tolkien's life work. Some people do.

You know what? When I started working on this, I was told many times by people that they were glad to see the old material go. That they hated it, and hated having to tell people that an otherwise good website had to be avoided. I don't think you guys realize how infamous this place is for Sindarish. It's so bad that people will automatically assume that any website aimed at non-Elvish-scholars will be just as bad. What I'm trying to do is repair your bad image and make excellent translations available to a wider group of people.

Now I realize that most of you probably don't care that you're making people warn others away from your website, and making people put it on their blacklists. I realize that you've grown comfortable with the old material. I realize that what I'm asking you to give up is something you're quite fond of. It's like trying to explain to a kid that they probably should start using a new blanket, because the old one is too small, full of holes, and something fuzzy and green is starting to grow on a corner. It's an adjustment. I'm trying to make it easier, but you guys keep screaming and punching me whenever I try to even mend or wash the blanket.

You know, if the primary focus of the website isn't Elvish, and I'm the only one willing to put any work into maintaining it, why have an Elvish section at all?

Quote:
Or even putting something like "These names are not accurate. For an accurate translation please see this list [link]" at the top of the page.
How about doing that in big, bold letters. And in a bright color so even a blind gramma could see it. or better yet, have a warning pop up that says, "Do you want accurate names? If so, go [here]. If not, click [continue]."

To sum up: Let's not keep bad material just because it's easier to read; let's make the good material easy to read!

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 19th, 2013, 12:59 am 
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dreamingfifi wrote:
The other option I thought of is basically using Tolkien's transcription system, except with:
the syllables marked with periods
vowel length marked with multiple vowels
stressed syllables marked with CAPSLOCK
and velar nasals marked with <ñ/Ñ> (as Tolkien does in Quenya) [That's the NG in "sing" sound.)
X will be written as KS
QU will be written as KW
C will be written as K.

Example:
Quote:
I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, han mathon ne chae a han noston ned 'wilith.

'The world is changed; I can feel it in the water, I can feel it in the earth, I can smell it in the air.'

/i A.mar PRES.tar AEN/ /han MA.thon ne CHAE a han NOS.ton ned WI.lith/

Arwen: [Sindarin]

Frodo, im Arwen. Telin le thaed. Lasto beth nîn, tolo dan nan galad.

'Frodo, I am Arwen - I've come to help you. Hear my voice… Come back to the light.'

/FRO.do im AR.wen/ /TE.lin le THAED/ /LAS.to BETH NIIIN/ /TO.lo dan nañ GA.lad/


Then a basic key on every page, so people can figure out what the unfamiliar symbols mean quick and easy.

How does that look?


I personally find this much, much easier to understand and would definitely cast my vote for working with it this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 19th, 2013, 5:50 am 
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Just to avoid that the discussion goes in circles:

Ana is working on an easier pronunciation guide for the new name lists. Lets first see what she comes up with and discuss if everyone likes it and finds it accessible, before deciding whether to keep the old name lists or not. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 19th, 2013, 12:46 pm 
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What's there to decide though? I thought EVERYONE was FOR keeping the old lists... except for one person. And I thought this entire thing ran on a democracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 19th, 2013, 1:56 pm 
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No, not necessarily. The reasoning was that we wanted easily accessible name lists for the casual fan to use, not just ones that required more in-depth knowledge of Elvish. As long as there is a name list that fulfills that purpose, it shouldn't really matter if it's an old list or a new one.

That's why I asked Hravan what she thought of the new list. Are there things that should be tweaked? Is it utterly incomprehensible? As someone who used the old lists, she would have an idea of what people would be looking for. So I have to ask the same questions as dreamingfifi right now:
Hravan wrote:
The original lists are easier to understand, easier to pronounce (seriously, that IPA stuff just makes me want to smash my laptop whenever I see it, it's so inaccessible),

Ana is working on new pronunciation guides for non-IPA readers. I gave my input above. Dreamingfifi showed two other plausible options. Are either of those easier to read?
Quote:
Quote:
easier to navigate
So how can we make the new material easier to navigate?

Quote:
and the meanings behind the names are the more usual ones rather than the strange ones in the new list.

Looking at it I can see how some would be a bit more mystifying for non-native English speakers. As we will likely be adding a new line for a second pronunciation, would it be helpful to try and give the essence of the name meaning as well?


Again, the main thing is to have a name list, regardless of it being an older list or a newer one. I don't see any reason we can't have something that is both accurate and accessible, as long as we give constructive comments to make it the best one possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 19th, 2013, 5:10 pm 
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dreamingfifi wrote:
Obviously, you don't care about Tolkien's life work. Some people do.



You don't have a frigging clue what I think about Tolkien's life work so don't you DARE insult me in that way.

As you obviously look down on people who haven't been able to dedicate their time to learning the Elvish languages, like you've been able to, I can't be bothered wasting my time replying to the rest of your post because you're just going to be rude like that.

EDIT:

Actually, it's pretty obvious this is going to turn into a "I'm a bigger Tolkien fan than all of you!!1!" elitist display so I can't be bothered any longer. I don't like dealing with toxic people so, like a lot of other users, I'm not coming into this thread anymore. Have a nice life alienating people with your superiority complex. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: January 19th, 2013, 6:21 pm 
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I'm sorry you feel the need to do so, especially as your input and answers to the questions would've been extremely helpful us as we try and update the site to the best of our abilities.

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