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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 15th, 2012, 8:52 pm 
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Then stop arguing and put the old lists back! You're not going to win this discussion, so you might as well give up right now. What's awful about it is that we've already had people asking where the lists went, and that's just not acceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 15th, 2012, 8:52 pm 
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I really do not know what to say anymore.

We are going around in circles and we are getting no further along.

If you must re-do the old Elvish page, then you have to have the old page up in the meantime, especially so we can compare the old list to your improved version. I cannot remember what the old page looked like word for word and how this new version may differ so I need to be able to see it, as do I am sure many people.

BUT there is a chance that the old version is preferred... and then we will have the old argument again.

So therefore I request that the Mods step in and have some say in this, because I literally do not know what else to say that can make things better.

Old version
New-old version
No version

They are our only options.

In regards to Ana's query about the old version not being put back up yet.....We don't know how much traffic other sections get, but Elvish crops up a lot in the guestbook so it is popular.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 15th, 2012, 10:24 pm 
Rider of Rohan
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This is what the new version is looking like so far. Is there any changes to the format that you'd like me to make?
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/elvish/names.html

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 15th, 2012, 10:32 pm 
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The bit about using it for characters needs to go. It's none of our business what people use it for. The long explanations for some names need to be shortened. People don't care about origins etc, just give the best option. And it looks funny to have the columns way out on the edges like that, they should be more centered. And finally: until the list is complete, put the old one back up.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 15th, 2012, 10:55 pm 
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If you love it so much, then you re-upload it. I'll work on perfecting the new one.

Check the page again.
Is it better this way, or should each column be centered?

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 15th, 2012, 11:28 pm 
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Does anyone have the old page? I know I'm not in the habit of saving the pages unless I'm working on them, so since this has been changed I know I can't reupload anything.

As to the columns, centered is better.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 15th, 2012, 11:42 pm 
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How's that?

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 15th, 2012, 11:57 pm 
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Much better. However, we still need to put the original page back up while you pursue this as you like. Did you save it? As I stated, I do not have a copy of it. I don't believe anyone else is either. Because as mentioned, we only tended to save the pages while we were working on them and were not in the habit of saving every page on the site.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 12:01 am 
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I didn't save it, because I knew I'd have to make major changes to it if it was kept so I wouldn't need it's template, and I know that it's been plagiarized by many LotR fansites so it's still available more or less.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 9:17 am 
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Guys! You know that A-U is made up of a common contribution to the site and based on volunteer work. The prize we pay for a shared, democratic approach to the whole Revival (or)deal is also that decision-making now takes time and must end with some kind of consensus. It is a process but that is the way we chose it.

I know the reason why this is upsetting you so much is because we all care about the site but this has developed into an argument rather than constructive dialogue and as a mod I cannot tolerate this.
Within just a couple of hours you guys escalated this into a full blown argument and this is not the way things should work on A-U.

dreamingfifi, I understand your feelings and reasons for wanting to protect the Elvish languages which you have spent a lot of time studying. We are happy for your contribution to the site, as we are happy for anyone who volunteers his/her skills and time. However, the decision-making process on A-U must be respected. That is that we discuss things, weighing all arguments until reaching a general agreement. And yes, it might drag on but like I said that is the way the community has chosen it to happen.

Anameleth, you have been so involved in organising the Revival and done a good job. However, everyone has the right to be heard. Like I said, A-U is consensus-based so even if one member has a different opinion she has the right to voice it without being patronised. Please, think carefully over your wording before you post in order not to escalate the conflict. We must be able to solve arguments in a peaceful way.

Remember A-U is all about the community on this forum. True we have a great main site, thanks to Arweb, with a lot of useful content which is being maintained and updated by a lot of contributors. But first and foremost A-U exists because of its members. If we cannot keep the peace I would rather close the thread and live with a half-finished Elvish section because this site is nothing without the community.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 9:24 am 
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JF went and found the list for you dreamingfifi, you can get the links here so you can put the old list back up while you work: http://arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&p=1194539#p1194539. And even if you have so much against putting the Elvish parts back on the site, you should at least use the English names, cause the list you have up now doesn't have nearly enough names for each letter of the alphabet.

The list should be separated into boys' and girls' names, because that will make it much easier for people to find the name they're looking for. Names are traditionally connected to one or the other gender, and where there are overlaps, I'm sure you can manage to put the name in both sections.

I said this before, but maybe you didn't see it, so I'll say it again. I think the explanations for some of the names are much too long, it doesn't look very good. A much simpler way of doing it if there are different translations for Quenya and Sindarin, is to just do it like this:

Barbara
S: "stranger", Q: "foreign"

Some more suggestions:
For names like Angel and Anthony, just put the translation you've chosen. Like I said before, people don't care that there aren't angels in Tolkien's world, I'm sure they'll be able to understand that Vala or Maia or whichever you choose is the closest there is.
As for names like Baxter, where there is only a Quenya version, I'm sure people understand that when they see that there is no Sindarin translation provided, so it's unnecessary to state that underneath the name.
If you're unsure about the meaning of a name (like Camilla), try looking it up on a babyname site or something. Camilla means Altar Server/Helper to the Priest, for instance.
Last but not least, for simplicity's sake, if there are names that mean the same as another, you should just put "see [insert other name here]". That will mean less work for you.

I'm sorry if this sounds patronizing, I'm not trying to be. I'm just tired of having one person completely ignore the fact that, like you say Eä, we're a community, and a democracy. Maybe I'm being a bit blunt sometimes, but I don't think it's hard to understand why.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 9:50 am 
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Ana, I know we had the discussion on the Elvish section before and that it feels like we're going in circles like JF said but maybe we need to take a seperate discussion (again) for every bit we are changing? Not just the Elvish section as a whole. Like now with the name list.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 9:56 am 
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^I believe singling me out is exactly what you're doing here, but fine. I'll keep my distance from this conversation from now on, seeing as how my input clearly isn't wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 11:25 am 
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- I'm not trying to start anything here, what with my track record taken into consideration and everything, but really? As a mod, quoting someone's posts and singling them out like that is quite rude, embarrassing and unprofessional (lack for a better word). In the past when I've been dealt with by mods in this manner, I always received a private message in which the discussion was carried on in private, instead of out in the open on the forum for everyone to read. In a sense, you're now patronizing her, just like she's being told off for doing... which makes you a bit of a hypocrite.

Also, just because you add a disclaimer to the end of your post telling someone that you weren't trying to single them out is just as redundant as saying "no offense, but..." before you say something offensive to someone. You were still singling her out.

I hope you see what I'm trying to say. And I guess say all you want to me for pointing this out here, but I'm barely a member here anymore (for reasons exactly like this) so it doesn't matter to me a whole lot.

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Last edited by Aredhel Ar-Feiniel on December 16th, 2012, 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 11:42 am 
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Please Ana, Eä didn't mean it like that. You have been one of the members who has been so involved with the revival and I'm sure everybody values your input.
She just wanted to keep the discussion from evolving into a conflict. Words can easily be misinterpreted, resulting in people taking offense, which is obviously not your intention, but Eä just wanted you to take caution. :)

So please, keep on discussing here, but keep the conversation friendly! :)

Haldir, thank you for your comments. I believe that Eä's comments were made without any bad intentions to single Ana out, but as you said, it might have had the opposite effect.

I think the best plan is to put up the old lists again, until you've all decided to update them or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section
PostPosted: December 16th, 2012, 12:00 pm 
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I edited my last post. My intention was not to hurt anyone or single one person out in public but rather trying to find a constructive solution and encourage a healthier dialogue by pointing out a few wordings that might be seen as unnecessarily harsh.
My apologies for that and thanks for letting me know.

And I hope we can now get back to the matter at hand: what goes on the Elvish Section - name list and what does not.

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